[lazysleepyboi]

 
Quote:

This is great.  Instead of swapping personal insults, we exchange mutual respect.  There really are some great people at Head-Fi.  
 

haha thanks, im sure we all joined this forum because we're audio enthusiast and although we're passionate about the headphones we listen to, there's always room for listening to other people's opinion. Remove all the slandering, all the insults, and all the arguing and you really get a unique experience from head-fi. Too bad people will be people, but it doesn't stop me from being civilized and helping people when they need it. It's people like you rimiclaw that bring out a different side of head-fi, different perspectives. I've seen a lot of threads reviewing headphones, but never a thread that talks about the warranty and how each company deals with it. It really sheds a different light =]

 

[ricmiclaw]

 


haha thanks, im sure we all joined this forum because we're audio enthusiast and although we're passionate about the headphones we listen to, there's always room for listening to other people's opinion. Remove all the slandering, all the insults, and all the arguing and you really get a unique experience from head-fi. Too bad people will be people, but it doesn't stop me from being civilized and helping people when they need it. It's people like you rimiclaw that bring out a different side of head-fi, different perspectives. I've seen a lot of threads reviewing headphones, but never a thread that talks about the warranty and how each company deals with it. It really sheds a different light =]

Thank you very much. I was being sincere about complimenting you when you explained that you didn't mean anything personal in your comments about another post. In my mind, I was comparing the civility of your post to some earlier posts where a few people got side tracked into arguments about "Grado lovers", "Grado fanboys", etc. As you can tell, I lost respect for Grado based on their conduct but felt that the personal epithets added nothing of value to the discussion.

 

[crayonhead]

Personally, I think that unless you're a specialized company (most hp companies are), there should be several levels of customer service. The higher the product chain, the better the service, like how credit card companies have gold and platinum cards.
 
However, headphone companies must have the same customer service no matter the line. I mean, at least I know some have upgraditis, and bad service may influence what they might buy later. Good service causes repeat business. It will also help your business if everyone knows of your service record, as some products may be returned due to defects, and that will cost more then just making sure that your product is top notch at the very beginning.

 

[ricmiclaw]

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[ricmiclaw]

Quote:

     some products may be returned due to defects, and that will cost more then just making sure that your product is top notch at the very beginning.

 
I'd like to think that's right but history suggests that it isn't always true.  In the 1970's Ford made the Pinto, a car with a gas tank prominently located just behind the rear bumper.  It was later proven that Pintos were prone to fires and explosions when struck in the rear near the gas tank.  During the litigation in the class action suit brought by the families of people who suffered horrific deaths from fire and by the disfigured survivors, a Ford high level (executive) memorandum was found during the legal process known as "discovery".  The memo was a straightforward comparison of the costs of fixing the known defect in the Pinto gas tank design versus the expected costs of losing a certain number of lawsuits and settling a certain other number of lawsuits.  The memo concluded that it was cheaper for Ford to allow the few dozen expected deaths and disfigurements to occur and deal with the possibility of paying (in the future) lawsuit damages and settlements versus the certainty of paying (up front) to fix the gas tank problem.  There was no consideration of the moral or ethical values implicit in Ford's executive analysis.  It was an ice cold financial cost versus benefit comparison.
 

We know that headphone failures do not rise to the level of horrific death or disfigurement by fire (maybe for some it is equivalent but not for me).  The fact that the moral and ethical considerations involved are much less weighty than life and death suggests to me that at least some companies making headphones (any products, really) will prefer to put out defective products and deal with a certain number of persistent warranty claims rather than make their products better in the first instance.  Moreover, making warranty processes excessively difficult, lengthy, costly, unpleasant, etc., will discourage a certain number of people from even bothering to pursue warranty claims and encourage others to drop their claims after an initial effort.  One poster in this thread even said that from his own knowledge of Grado customer service, he will not take his warranted Grados to them for repair, choosing instead to pay out of pocket for repairs that Grado should pay for under the terms of its warranty.  This is the behavior on which such companies count. 

 

I believe that some companies reach a point (or may have started from the premise) that such reprehensible behavior pays off financially for them.  They know they walk a thin line that is sometimes crossed (see, e.g., General Motors), where the quality of the product and follow-on customer service decline to the point that large numbers of former and potential customers abandon the company's products.  Most such companies, however, manage to putter along this thin line for a long time (see, e.g., the "telephone company"), and have either a natural monopoly or a dedicated customer base against whom virtually no offense is sufficient to drive away that core business.  

 

The question I think we should be asking when purchasing, among other audio products, $1,000+ headphones is, "Where should the manufacturers of our favorite products draw these lines?".  I believe Audeze is an example of a company that is currently getting it about right and Grado is an example of a company that isn't.  I have no idea what motivates Grado to treat customers the way it treated me.  But it is well established, and evidenced by at least one posting in this thread, that bad warranty service discourages future warranty claims.  A related question is whether bad warranty service discourages future sales.  Also, keep in mind that my Grado flagship product, the PS1000 ($1,700), was virtually DOA, having failed after just a few hours of use and was actually (not virtually) DOA upon return from Grado warranty service.  With the relative behaviors of Audeze and Grado continuing at these companies, it would be my personal choice to consider another Audeze product while I would not consider another Grado product.

 

[ricmiclaw]

Quote:

Speaking of good customer service. I just wanted to extend my sincere thanks to Head-Direct. If anyone orders the HE-500, HE-6, etc in the future, just know that their customer service is top notch. Fang and his crew are extremely generous, and treat each and every customer with respect. I had a bit of trouble (especially with the customs) as well as a few other things, and they have been the most delighted to help out, every time. Top recommendations from me. I respect them highly.

I just spent considerable time speaking with Ms. T. at Head-Direct customer service.  After spending a couple of minutes getting the facts and figuring out who I was, she carefully explained the replacement and shipping process, also time estimates, from China for my HE6.  She also explained some of the business differences between Chinese and American shipping practices so I could better understand what's involved in obtaining the warranty replacement from China.  She was thoroughly professional and personable.  I have not yet had the pleasure of speaking with Fang but I can certainly agree that, while I'm still waiting for the replacement, the handling of my case by Ms. T. and her professionalism and respectful manner find me not minding the wait.    
 

 

[sling5s]

I love the Grado headphones but their customer service is backwards.  Yes, they do eventually get the job done but it's a frustrating process and experience.  It's the kind of service that you get when you go to one of those restaurants with amazing food but the service is crappy.  You go for the food because it's awesome but you go knowing that you're going to get poor service.
 
I don't think they mean to give poor service.  One hand when I lost my Grado RS1 rod cap, they sent it to me free with free shipment. On the other hand, when my Grado Rs1 driver failed, it took six weeks with no emails that they received it, or what the problem was or when it would be shipped, or when it was shipped.  No sorry, no thank you, no we appreciate your patience.
 
So I take Grado for what it is and enjoy their product and put up with their backward service. 
 

 

[ricmiclaw]

Quote:

So I take Grado for what it is and enjoy their product and put up with their backward service. 
 

 
We're already owners so we're rather stuck with crummy customer service when and as needed for our existing products.  But - would you buy from them again knowing this?
 
 

 

[sling5s]

Yes, because, there is no other place to go for such "sound"  For that kind of enjoyment, I put up with it. 
If there was, yes, I would definitely go else where without hesitation but there is only one "Grado".    

 

[ricmiclaw]

Quote:

Yes, because, there is no other place to go for such "sound"  For that kind of enjoyment, I put up with it. 
If there was, yes, I would definitely go else where without hesitation but there is only one "Grado".    

My headphones also have unique sound signatures.  Grado is no different in being different from others.  If you find Grado's signature sound devine, then, regrettably, you must put up with poor customer service.  For that matter, so must I unless I sell my PS1000.  Maybe if Grado (and other poor customer service companies) heard more from their biggest admirers, they might improve.  Have you ever given Grado any feedback on how they could improve their service or just accepted it as such?
 
Since I have no patience for poor customer service, perhaps I should start thinking about selling my unit.  Something else in life to keep my time occupied.
 

 

[sidel]

Comparing companies like this is very difficult to do fairly because of how differently they are set up for different levels of production.  I imagine Grado has a large number more people working customer service for them and therefore have a rather strict protocol for doing things.  It's not always necessarily that things aren't being done fairly,  it's just that complaints/reasonable requests are falling on deaf ears because of the size of the company and the customer not being able to be passed on to someone high up enough to make decision(s) based on the individual case.  This isn't as much of a defense as it is a "this is what I've found to be the sad truth about business".
 
It is absolutely wrong that you ultimately had to pay for something that was undeniably their mistake.  I know that would put a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[ricmiclaw]

Comparing companies like this is very difficult to do fairly because of how differently they are set up for different levels of production.  I imagine Grado has a large number more people working customer service for them and therefore have a rather strict protocol for doing things.  It's not always necessarily that things aren't being done fairly,  it's just that complaints/reasonable requests are falling on deaf ears because of the size of the company and the customer not being able to be passed on to someone high up enough to make decision(s) based on the individual case.  This isn't as much of a defense as it is a "this is what I've found to be the sad truth about business".
 
It is absolutely wrong that you ultimately had to pay for something that was undeniably their mistake.  I know that would put a bad taste in my mouth.

 
Thank you for your understanding.  I didn't want to trash Grado but to point out how a bad experience can be turned into an opportunity to earn customer loyalty as Audeze did with me.  
 
From what I've read about Grado, they pride themselves on being a small, family-run business.  I'll take them at their word and assume they aren't a giant, multi-layered, bureaucratic organization where thousands of people work who don't know each other.  I agree with you about truly large organizations and the difficulties that such organizations have with rigidity and unresponsiveness.  As Grado's own advertising emphasizes the family-run nature of their business, I don't think Grado gets to have it both ways.  Either they're a large, bureaucratic, unresponsive corporate behemoth or they're a small, family-run business that posts pictures of their kids on their website.  Take a look at their website and tell me which image is the one they desire to promote.  The explanation you provide in entirely appropriate for General Motors, not Grado.
 
 

 

[ricmiclaw]

Another organization that I've had exemplary customer service from is HeadRoom.  I've done considerable business with them and know many of their employees (sales, service and shipping) by first name, though only through e-mail and telephone conversations.  One or two months ago, I damaged one of the RCA connectors on my HeadRoom Portable Desktop Amp.  That's not an inexpensive unit so I wanted to get the connector fixed even though the damage didn't prevent use of the connector.  I sent pictures of the damage to HeadRoom and received a quote of $100 for the repair and was told the repair wasn't needed if the plug still fit and made contact (the damage was clearly my fault so the warranty - it's still under warranty - wasn't an issue).  Nonetheless, I sent it to them for repairs because the dented connector bothered me whenever I looked at it (and it did make insertion and removal of the plug more difficult).  When I received the invoice, it had a $0.00 amount.  They did the repair gratis.  I didn't expect it and don't expect it again in the future.  However, I was astonished that they would thank me for my business up to that point by extending $100 worth of service without charge.  They also shipped it back to me without charge.  They took one of the classic lessons of business and personal relationships and gave me an unexpected gift (the best kind).  Now, that's first class.  Because they knew me, they knew I wasn't the kind of man who would always expect such freebies so the gift was both smart and safe.  Who do you suppose I'm going to favor with my money if HeadRoom carries a product I need?  HeadRoom certainly knows the answer.  Why don't more companies understand how much business is earned by building loyalty?   

 

[sidel]

Quote:

Thank you for your understanding.  I didn't so much want to trash Grado as to point out how a bad experience can be turned into an opportunity to earn customer loyalty as Audeze did with me.  
 
From what I've read about Grado, they pride themselves on being a small, family-run business.  I'll take them at their word and assume they aren't a giant, multi-layered, bureaucratic organization where thousands of people work who don't know each other.  I agree with you about truly large organizations and the difficulties that such organizations have with rigidity and unresponsiveness.  As Grado's own advertising emphasizes the family-run nature of their business, I don't think Grado gets to have it both ways.  Either they're a large, bureaucratic, unresponsive corporate behemoth or they're a small, family-run business that posts pictures of their kids on their website.  Take a look at their website and tell me which image is the one they desire to promote.  The explanation you provide in entirely appropriate for General Motors, not Grado.

But now we're bringing in promotion and how a company represents itself to the public.  Grado is certainly not very large, and I did not mean to imply it was, however,  I guarantee their overall production to be much larger than Audeze,  and in doing so (even without a gigantic number of employees)  create a dynamic in which it is much more difficult to get the right person looking at, and making decisions for, the right things.   What happened is definitely a huge screw-up regardless of this though,  and that's just not even up for debate.  I'm only suggesting that a grain of salt should be added when making the comparison  (Audeze is still really only producing a single product)
 
--
There's just no way I can fathom any company doing what happened to you on purpose in order to save such an insignificant cost to themselves when dealing with a customer that shelled out such a sizable investment in one of their products.   Especially one that has treated me well thus far and currently even has a cnet article being linked on the front page of this very site speaking of how they will send out a replacement C brackets at no charge.  It just seems screwy.

 

[ricmiclaw]

But now we're bringing in promotion and how a company represents itself to the public.  Grado is certainly not very large, and I did not mean to imply it was, however,  I guarantee their overall production to be much larger than Audeze,  and in doing so (even without a gigantic number of employees)  create a dynamic in which it is much more difficult to get the right person looking at, and making decisions for, the right things.   What happened is definitely a huge screw-up regardless of this though,  and that's just not even up for debate.  I'm only suggesting that a grain of salt should be added when making the comparison  (Audeze is still really only producing a single product)
 
--
There's just no way I can fathom any company doing what happened to you on purpose in order to save such an insignificant cost to themselves when dealing with a customer that shelled out such a sizable investment in one of their products.   Especially one that has treated me well thus far and currently even has a cnet article being linked on the front page of this very site speaking of how they will send out a replacement C brackets at no charge.  It just seems screwy.

 
I can't disagree with you about Grado being larger and having more products to support than Audeze.  But how a company chooses to represent itself to the public is a relevant issue in the same sense that politicians who choose to represent themselves as "family values" candidates are in for special opprobrium when they fail to live up to their self-professed, self-advertised image.  If Grado wants to stress that it's a family-run business, that's fine with me.  When they decide to act like an out of touch corporate giant, that's unacceptable.  How many levels of people do you suppose would have been needed to approve a $31.83 reimbursement for failure to perform warranty repairs?  How many desks, how many approvals, how much executive decision making authority do you think would have been needed for a family-run business to make sure their flagship product is fixed correctly?  
 
That's another point, too.  You mention that Grado has many products.  True.  How many of those products does Grado itself refer to as its "flagship"?  One.  Just one.  The PS1000.  If they can't make their "flagship" product correctly in the first place, they can at least fix it correctly the first time and reimburse the customer for shipping expenses back to them when they fail to fix it properly upon first receipt.  If a company is going to refer to a particular product in their line as their "flagship" it should mean that it's a special product and will receive top notch service and support.  If this is how they handle their "flagship" product support, I dread to think how they handle products lower in their line.  
 
I also think their communications were atrocious.  Sending a $1,700 headphone without notice, without providing a tracking number or requiring a signature is unconscionable.  After the second repair, how could Grado have sent my property to the re-cabling man?  What if I had an argument with that man and he refused to give me my property?  How do you think Grado would have handled a claim by me that the unit never arrived, was stolen or the man to whom they sent it won't give it to me?  Do you think a replacement, along with a $31.83 check would be forthcoming?  Also, products are stolen or mis-delivered more than rarely.  I once sent a birthday present to my sister in another state.  Like the PS1000 from Grado, my shipment had a tracking number (which Grado kept to themselves) but no signature requirement.  The carrier said it delivered the present to my sister's neighbor.  The neighbor denied receiving it.  Who was lying - my sister's neighbor or the carrier?  We never found out and I had to replace the gift.  
 
For clarification, however, I have never claimed Grado did any of this on purpose.  I have only stated the facts as they are known to me.  Accusing them of purposeful action involves knowledge I don't possess.  I can say only that the service manager claimed he personally supervised the second repair effort and was the person to whom I directed my reimbursement request along with a statement that he should give it to whomever is in charge of those decisions.  Do you think, at Grado, the service manager knows who writes the checks?  If the person in such a position is the one who made a decision to not reimburse me, given these facts, I think his actions don't "seem right to me" as I put it to Grado''s service manager.  That was as kind a way of putting it as I could think of.