[cddc]

I am a newbie to wood work. Thanks a lot for explaining the different approaches to color the wood.

I think I like the stain or veneer approach better than the dye/paint approach. The finish on guitar or piano basically covers up the beautiful grains on the wood.

But I think stain is very difficult to work with, as @DenverW has pointed out in his work.

To make something as beautiful as the samples below would be quite challenging, I guess...

 

[GreenNeedle]

I am a newbie to wood work. Thanks a lot for explaining the different approaches to color the wood.

I think I like the stain or veneer approach better than the dye/paint approach. The finish on guitar or piano basically covers up the beautiful grains on the wood.

But I think stain is very difficult to work with, as @DenverW has pointed out in his work.

To make something as beautiful as the samples below would be quite challenging, I guess...

You can buy "tinted" oil finishes. Wipe on, wipe off etc. If you look above oil would turn the left picture into the right picture. The Alder when you get it is light, When you oil it naturally tints it anyway but you can buy Oils with added tints in them. I however use a natural "untinted" one (Untinted still tints a little.)

The easiest way to get the colour you want is for the surface to already be close. like dying hair. It is much harder to go from one extreme to another.

A few examples:
This is rosewood veneer before and after. The photos are quite accurate and it is the same veneer I have used on my Crack but I didn't take "befores" with the Crack. Before it is a beautiful grain but a dull finish and visually quite a flat 2D appearance. After it comes alive. 3D and really popping, It also is holographic with light. The colours in these photos are quite accurate (on my screen) so you can really see the difference. A lighter yellowy brown before. A much darker redder after:


Something Darker? Macassar Ebony. Similar to the rosewood before. A dusty undefined finish but it looks like dark chocolate and caramel after oiling:


Something lighter? Zebrano is very light, almost white but the dark grains contrasting look really good. This wood really does pop after oiling:


Flame Maple on an old highgate alpha of no value? Why not. Incidentally this maple is exactly the same colour as the BH Alder before Oiling:


Try it. The big roll in the first pic cost about £30. It would probably be only $20 in the US. You could veneer 10 Cracks with that so plenty of it to practice on other things ↑

And p.s. I can't get good finishes with stains. I am useless at it. Dyes with lacquer on top I can get away with. Can't go wrong with Oiling. If it isn't working you just let it cure for a week or 2 and sand it back before continuing.

And I am not a carpenter nor a pro. The above are all still in my house apart from the Alpha which my Dad has permanently on listening to the radio in his retirement. I can't afford "nice" things so I make them "nice" instead

 

[GreenNeedle]

CDDC. I just noticed your avatar. That guitar would have been the same colour as the alder before:



But add dyes, coat with lacquer and:



This was probably the one project I wish I hadn't done. lol. I wish I had just sanded up the swamp Ash, then oiled it and left it as the Ibanez Blazer it was.

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

Got a couple more tubes. Finally got a Western Electric 421a. It looks pretty much identical to the Tung Sol 5998 (bottom getter). It sounds bigger and grander than the Tung Sol. It really makes the HD600 sound warm with deep and tight bass. It took a while to sound right. It actually sounded quite bad at first. Several hours of play time to self correct. And, it takes a while to warm up where only one channel is audible for a few minutes. Not sure if that is indicative of any problems.

Also got an Amperex Bugle Boy 12au7. It has that old buzzy sound and the sound stage really collapses to little peep hole.

I'll do an A/B comparison with the TS 5998 and Western Electric 421A later when I get a chance. I think I read where someone posted that the tubes are identical. I don't think so. Right now, I am just enjoying the listening experience.

 

[PsilocybinCube]

Got a couple more tubes. Finally got a Western Electric 421a. It looks pretty much identical to the Tung Sol 5998 (bottom getter). It sounds bigger and grander than the Tung Sol. It really makes the HD600 sound warm with deep and tight bass. It took a while to sound right. It actually sounded quite bad at first. Several hours of play time to self correct. And, it takes a while to warm up where only one channel is audible for a few minutes. Not sure if that is indicative of any problems.

Also got an Amperex Bugle Boy 12au7. It has that old buzzy sound and the sound stage really collapses to little peep hole.

I'll do an A/B comparison with the TS 5998 and Western Electric 421A later when I get a chance. I think I read where someone posted that the tubes are identical. I don't think so. Right now, I am just enjoying the listening experience.

Congrats on some great tubes. I'd recommend cross-posting in the 6as7g thread for some thoughts on the channel imbalance during warm-up. Those folks have been very helpful for me.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-398#

 

[cddc]

You can buy "tinted" oil finishes. Wipe on, wipe off etc. If you look above oil would turn the left picture into the right picture. The Alder when you get it is light, When you oil it naturally tints it anyway but you can buy Oils with added tints in them. I however use a natural "untinted" one (Untinted still tints a little.)

The easiest way to get the colour you want is for the surface to already be close. like dying hair. It is much harder to go from one extreme to another.

A few examples:
This is rosewood veneer before and after. The photos are quite accurate and it is the same veneer I have used on my Crack but I didn't take "befores" with the Crack. Before it is a beautiful grain but a dull finish and visually quite a flat 2D appearance. After it comes alive. 3D and really popping, It also is holographic with light. The colours in these photos are quite accurate (on my screen) so you can really see the difference. A lighter yellowy brown before. A much darker redder after:


Something Darker? Macassar Ebony. Similar to the rosewood before. A dusty undefined finish but it looks like dark chocolate and caramel after oiling:


Something lighter? Zebrano is very light, almost white but the dark grains contrasting look really good. This wood really does pop after oiling:


Flame Maple on an old highgate alpha of no value? Why not. Incidentally this maple is exactly the same colour as the BH Alder before Oiling:


Try it. The big roll in the first pic cost about £30. It would probably be only $20 in the US. You could veneer 10 Cracks with that so plenty of it to practice on other things ↑

And p.s. I can't get good finishes with stains. I am useless at it. Dyes with lacquer on top I can get away with. Can't go wrong with Oiling. If it isn't working you just let it cure for a week or 2 and sand it back before continuing.

And I am not a carpenter nor a pro. The above are all still in my house apart from the Alpha which my Dad has permanently on listening to the radio in his retirement. I can't afford "nice" things so I make them "nice" instead

Wow…can’t believe oiling can do such magic to veneers. The dull grain on the veneers just popped out after oiling.

Years ago I saw people applied Danish Oil to their Crack, the results were pretty good, but just not as impressive as the works you did.

Thanks a lot for sharing your excellent wood works and their recipes.

BTW the vintage radio looks awesome!

 

[cddc]

CDDC. I just noticed your avatar. That guitar would have been the same colour as the alder before:



But add dyes, coat with lacquer and:



This was probably the one project I wish I hadn't done. lol. I wish I had just sanded up the swamp Ash, then oiled it and left it as the Ibanez Blazer it was.

Why you wish you hadn't done the project...the finish on your bass looks fabulous...very close to Les Paul, the most beautiful guitar ever made.

Excellent workmanship!

 

[cddc]

Got a couple more tubes. Finally got a Western Electric 421a. It looks pretty much identical to the Tung Sol 5998 (bottom getter). It sounds bigger and grander than the Tung Sol. It really makes the HD600 sound warm with deep and tight bass. It took a while to sound right. It actually sounded quite bad at first. Several hours of play time to self correct. And, it takes a while to warm up where only one channel is audible for a few minutes. Not sure if that is indicative of any problems.

Also got an Amperex Bugle Boy 12au7. It has that old buzzy sound and the sound stage really collapses to little peep hole.

I'll do an A/B comparison with the TS 5998 and Western Electric 421A later when I get a chance. I think I read where someone posted that the tubes are identical. I don't think so. Right now, I am just enjoying the listening experience.

I normally wait only one or two minutes for my Crack to warm up and then start to listen to music, by which time both channels play nicely, though the optimal status may come half an hour later. One channel does not make any sound after a few minutes warm-up while the other does is a bad sign. It could be a sign that the cathode on that channel is near depletion and can not emit enough electrons (so need more time to heat up in order to emit enough electrons).

Had the 421A been tested by the seller before you bought it? If it was tested, the test values should be able to tell you something about the status of both channels.

 

[cddc]

Got a couple more tubes. Finally got a Western Electric 421a. It looks pretty much identical to the Tung Sol 5998 (bottom getter). It sounds bigger and grander than the Tung Sol. It really makes the HD600 sound warm with deep and tight bass. It took a while to sound right. It actually sounded quite bad at first. Several hours of play time to self correct. And, it takes a while to warm up where only one channel is audible for a few minutes. Not sure if that is indicative of any problems.

Also got an Amperex Bugle Boy 12au7. It has that old buzzy sound and the sound stage really collapses to little peep hole.

I'll do an A/B comparison with the TS 5998 and Western Electric 421A later when I get a chance. I think I read where someone posted that the tubes are identical. I don't think so. Right now, I am just enjoying the listening experience.

Whether TS 5998 and WE 421A are the same was a huge debate.

Normally if 2 tubes possess the same innards in any other types of tubes, they would always be considered the same tube - one being the original and the other being the rebrand of course. But some people just can't treat TS 5998 / WE421A the same way, which is pretty weird!

The biggest "fact" that those "not-the-same-tube" believers often cite is that on tube specs datasheets WE421A has transconductance of 20,000 uMhos vs TS5998 only 14,000 uMhos. So they think the 2 are different tubes because they have different transconductances. But what they do not know is that these different transconductances were obtained under different plate voltages and grid voltages, if WE421A and TS5998 were tested under the same plate voltage and grid voltage, they will have the same measured transconductance. And I don't blame those believers, as most of them has little knowledge on how testers work and how transconductances are measured if at all.

Some people say the 2 sound the same, while others say WE421A sounds better. Well, this is quite subjective, and people's opinions are often biased by the prices. It's quite psychological, but it is true. People tend to think the expensive tubes sound better even if they were hearing the same tube oftentimes. This psychological effect can be eliminated by a double-blind test, but in practice few people were able to do a double-blind test.

I used to be 90% sure that WE421A and TS5998 are the same tube (because I only heard subjective reviews with few concrete data). Until recently after spending weeks researching how testers work and their datasheets I'veI become 100% sure that WE421A and TS5998 tube are the same tube.

Data/Facts:
On the military TV-7 tester datasheet, there is one entry for TS5998 and one entry for WE421A. I compared the 2 entries, they are the SAME! So they are using the exactly the same settings and exactly the same plate voltage and grid voltage to test the 2 tubes on TV-7, and the minimum good value of 40 is also the same for both tubes (side note: minimum good value is normally 1 Standard Deviation away from the 100% new, so it is often set at 65% of 100% new on various testers). This proves that the biggest "fact" those "not-the-same-tube" believers hold is WRONG. If TS5998 and WE421A are tested under the same plate voltage and grid voltage, they will have exactly the same transconductance as per the military TV-7 datasheet. Had the WE421A come with a much higher transconductance than TS5998, its minimum good value would have been much higher than 40, but WE421A and TS5998 just have the same minimum good value of 40 if they are tested under the same plate voltage and grid voltage on TV-7. On their datasheets WE421A has a higher transconductance of 20k Mhos (vs 14k Mhos on TS5998), that's only because WE421A was tested with higher plate and grid voltages (i.e. more positive voltage on the plate and less negative voltage on the grid so that the current flow between cathode and plate will become much larger and measured transconductance will be much higher). But if we apply the same plate voltage and grid voltage on these 2 tubes, they will have the same measured transconductance as proved by the military TV-7 datasheets. (side note on the U.S. military TV-7 tube tester: it is for use in battle fields, so accuracy and reliability is of top priority. The datasheets for TV-7 has to be certified by tube and tube tester experts. So I trust what the TV-7 datasheets tell me). Other testers say the same thing, like the 752A tester also has the same test settings and minimum good value for the 2 tubes.

While I do trust our tube and tube amp expert @Skylab 's opinion that WE421 and TS5998 are the same tube and sound the same to him (side note: Rob aka @Skylab did lots of great professional grade reviews on tube amps and tubes, and has a gigantic collection of NOS tubes - see pic below), I am more of a scientific person, I always try to be as objective/unbiased as possible, so I'd rather trust data/facts than people's subjective and often money-biased opinions, but what I found through data/facts also prove WE421A and TS5998 are the same tube. Both tubes had some small variations over the years, but they are essentially the SAME tube, both designed by Western Electric and manufactured by Tung Sol / Chatham.

PS: @Skylab , if you mind me posting the pic that you posted long time ago, let me know, I will delete it.

 

[tintinsnowydog]

Just received these interesting smooth welded plate, slanted square getter CV491. HR indicates it’s a Mullard from the Hivac Ruislip factory, dated December of 1953. They test very low so got them much cheaper than the crazy prices welded plate Mullards are going for right now. They sound incredible paired with an Osram A1834, the most beautiful yet accurate midrange tonality I have heard, especially for classical violin and orchestra. Wide soundstage, bass is well controlled and impactful, treble clear but never harsh.

I wasnt a believer in the different Mullard constructions sounding very different, but this is definitely the best 12AU7/ECC82 I’ve heard, a step above the later k61/gf1/gf2/cv4003 Blackburns in most aspects of sound. Am yet to try the amperex 7316 or MOV offerings, but I wont spend more than double digits for any 12AU7- may be a while before I can hear them

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

Whether TS 5998 and WE 421A are the same was a huge debate.

Normally if 2 tubes possess the same innards in any other types of tubes, they would always be considered the same tube - one being the original and the other being the rebrand of course. But some people just can't treat TS 5998 / WE421A the same way, which is pretty weird!

The biggest "fact" that those "not-the-same-tube" believers often cite is that on tube specs datasheets WE421A has transconductance of 20,000 uMhos vs TS5998 only 14,000 uMhos. So they think the 2 are different tubes because they have different transconductances. But what they do not know is that these different transconductances were obtained under different plate voltages and grid voltages, if WE421A and TS5998 were tested under the same plate voltage and grid voltage, they will have the same measured transconductance. And I don't blame those believers, as most of them has little knowledge on how testers work and how transconductances are measured if at all.

Some people say the 2 sound the same, while others say WE421A sounds better. Well, this is quite subjective, and people's opinions are often biased by the prices. It's quite psychological, but it is true. People tend to think the expensive tubes sound better even if they were hearing the same tube oftentimes. This psychological effect can be eliminated by a double-blind test, but in practice few people were able to do a double-blind test.

I used to be 90% sure that WE421A and TS5998 are the same tube (because I only heard subjective reviews with few concrete data). Until recently after spending weeks researching how testers work and their datasheets I'veI become 100% sure that WE421A and TS5998 tube are the same tube.

Data/Facts:
On the military TV-7 tester datasheet, there is one entry for TS5998 and one entry for WE421A. I compared the 2 entries, they are the SAME! So they are using the exactly the same settings and exactly the same plate voltage and grid voltage to test the 2 tubes on TV-7, and the minimum good value of 40 is also the same for both tubes (side note: minimum good value is normally 1 Standard Deviation away from the 100% new, so it is often set at 65% of 100% new on various testers). This proves that the biggest "fact" those "not-the-same-tube" believers hold is WRONG. If TS5998 and WE421A are tested under the same plate voltage and grid voltage, they will have exactly the same transconductance as per the military TV-7 datasheet. Had the WE421A come with a much higher transconductance than TS5998, its minimum good value would have been much higher than 40, but WE421A and TS5998 just have the same minimum good value of 40 if they are tested under the same plate voltage and grid voltage on TV-7. On their datasheets WE421A has a higher transconductance of 20k Mhos (vs 14k Mhos on TS5998), that's only because WE421A was tested with higher plate and grid voltages (i.e. more positive voltage on the plate and less negative voltage on the grid so that the current flow between cathode and plate will become much larger and measured transconductance will be much higher). But if we apply the same plate voltage and grid voltage on these 2 tubes, they will have the same measured transconductance as proved by the military TV-7 datasheets. (side note on the U.S. military TV-7 tube tester: it is for use in battle fields, so accuracy and reliability is of top priority. The datasheets for TV-7 has to be certified by tube and tube tester experts. So I trust what the TV-7 datasheets tell me). Other testers say the same thing, like the 752A tester also has the same test settings and minimum good value for the 2 tubes.

While I do trust our tube and tube amp expert @Skylab 's opinion that WE421 and TS5998 are the same tube and sound the same to him (side note: Rob aka @Skylab did lots of great professional grade reviews on tube amps and tubes, and has a gigantic collection of NOS tubes - see pic below), I am more of a scientific person, I always try to be as objective/unbiased as possible, so I'd rather trust data/facts than people's subjective and often money-biased opinions, but what I found through data/facts also prove WE421A and TS5998 are the same tube. Both tubes had some small variations over the years, but they are essentially the SAME tube, both designed by Western Electric and manufactured by Tung Sol / Chatham.






PS: @Skylab , if you mind me posting the pic that you posted long time ago, let me know, I will delete it.

They both sound great. I could not do an A/B test because of the time required to change tubes. I did try to inspect them to see if there was any difference in the tubes and I couldn't find anything different except the label.

The tubes do behave differently as the WE 421a has a warm up period whereas the TS5998 didn't. I'd like to do a real A/B test, but based on the data you are providing, my guess is that the major difference will just be tube variations.

 

[DenverW]

Just received these interesting welded plate slanted square getter CV491. HR indicates it’s a Mullard from the Hivac Ruislip factory, dated December of 1953. They test very low so got them much cheaper than the crazy prices welded plate Mullards are going for right now. They sound incredible paired with an Osram A1834, the most beautiful yet accurate midrange tonality I have heard, especially for classical violin and orchestra. Wide soundstage, bass is well controlled and impactful, treble clear but never harsh.

I wasnt a believer in the different Mullard constructions sounding very different, but this is definitely the best 12AU7/ECC82 I’ve heard, a step above the later k61/gf1/gf2/cv4003 Blackburns in most aspects of sound. Am yet to try the amperex 7136 or MOV offerings, but I wont spend more than double digits for any 12AU7- may be a while before I can hear them

Join me on my quest for 12au7 superiority! My favorite is a welded plate slant getter amperex from 1945. Now, if only we could convince the group...

 

[tintinsnowydog]

They both sound great. I could not do an A/B test because of the time required to change tubes. I did try to inspect them to see if there was any difference in the tubes and I couldn't find anything different except the label.

The tubes do behave differently as the WE 421a has a warm up period whereas the TS5998 didn't. I'd like to do a real A/B test, but based on the data you are providing, my guess is that the major difference will just be tube variations.

I am also in the camp for WE421A=5998. I have only heard them side by side briefly as I dont own the 421A but in all my tubes same internals=same sound, excluding individual tube difference. If the 421A were simply tubes that were cherry picked for testing better, that would be more than enough to explain any perceived difference.

Join me on my quest for 12au7 superiority! My favorite is a welded plate slant getter amperex from 1945. Now, if only we could convince the group...

1945! I thought the 12AU7 only came after 1946 starting in US and only later EU. I’d imagine they sound similar to the Hivac. As for 12AU7 superiority.. the best ones certainly do many things well especially in the mids, but for me, I still think their overall presentation is a little dry, and somewhat rolled off and prone to distortion distally at both ends. I do think the 6SN7s are much more expansive and warm/darker sounding, be that due to more euphonic distortion or otherwise. Specific 12AU7s all do certain things well, if I wanted to really nail a specific technicality I would choose from them; e.g. TFECC82 has the best clarity and laser sharp focused details, Mullards have beautiful liquidity; but they both have their flaws too. If i wanted to stick something in that just blends and sounds overall pleasant but may not have any clear strengths, I would turn to my 6SN7s.

 

[PsilocybinCube]

Join me on my quest for 12au7 superiority! My favorite is a welded plate slant getter amperex from 1945. Now, if only we could convince the group...

You should go on the 6sn7 thread and start a serious audiophile discussion on this...I for one have been coaxed to the 6sn7dark side despite being your jedi apprentice.

 

[JamieMcC]

Pretty sure I've owned at least six variations of the 5998 tubes with differing internals they all have sounded similar sonically.

The exception being the early Tungsol 5998 clear top variant (1950's) which to me most definitely had a different sonic character. I also have several WE421a and would consider the early Tungsol clear top my favourite tube of all the variants of 5998 I've had so far it just had something a bit special about how it sounds compared to the others I've owned.