Chord Hugo
Dec 6, 2016 at 5:20 PM Post #14,281 of 15,694

The results are in two respects interesting;
 
a) the power mentioned above is materially below rated power of chord and I would like to see the view of chord
b) Further down on the RU site there is figure of tension (V) vs TDH in %; one sees that before skyrocketing hugo reaches 2V-4V ar R=16 Ohm, assuming tension as RMS this would mean a power of  >2*2/16 = 0.25W which is at least a factor of 10x off from the table above
 
Any views from anyone?
 
Dec 6, 2016 at 5:30 PM Post #14,282 of 15,694
Nope you lost me at "the results are in two respects interesting"  
blink.gif

 
But hey i failed probability three times at uni
 
But please carry on those with maths
 
Dec 6, 2016 at 7:03 PM Post #14,284 of 15,694
No.

The power of an amplifier basically tells you how loudly it will play, if you have hard to drive headphones. Headphones with low impedance need more current than headphones with higher impedance. BUT the sensitivity of the headphones is an important number.

For example lots of IEMs have very low impedance, but they are also very sensitive. That means the voltage can be low. So IEMs normally sound loud with a much lower volume setting than full sized headphones.

So the low impedance of IEMs doesn't matter very much.

There are full size headphones that are low in impedance and also low in sensitivity. So you have to turn the volume control much higher. And because they have low impedance, that requires the amplifier to deliver more power. There are two simple formulae:

power = volts x amps

volts = impedance x amps

So a bit of algebra gives you this formula:

power = impedance x amps x amps

or:

power = volts x volts / impedance.

So if we use the second formula we know that 300 ohm headphones can be driven at 4.49V by Hugo:

4.49 x 4.49 = 20.1601

Divide that by 300 ohms:

= 0.0672 watts.

Which is the same as 67.2 milliwatts (thousandths of a watt). Which is very close to the number that is reported: 67.28 milliwatts.

If the amplifier can't deliver the power it will crackle and make other horrible noises.

In the end you have to know the sensitivity specification for a headphone and the impedance, to get an idea of how hard it is to drive. If the sensitivity is really really low then something like Hugo won't have enough volts. In that case Hugo isn't running out of power, instead the volume control just doesn't go far enough! It will also sound crackly though when you reach the maximum loudness.
No these numbers are from a site that did some testing.
If we use the formula above you can see that at 199 ohms:

power = volts x volts / impedance
0.10131 = 4.49 x 4.49 / 199

everything is fine (the measured number is 0.10149 watts). With lower impedance at the same voltage, more power is required, 101 milliwatts at 199 ohms compared with 67 milliwatts at 300 ohms.

That's the same as saying "a lower impedance headphone needs more power at the same volume control position."

Less impedance is like a fat water pipe. More impedance is like a narrow water pipe. The amount of water that can flow through the pipe depends on how fat the pipe is. So if the water pressure is the same, more water flows through the pipe that impedes less. The pipe on your toilet where all the **** goes is FAT. It needs to be fat because lots of water wants to travel through it very quickly in 3 or 4 seconds (and you might have done a fat ****!). But the pipe that puts water into the tank is much thinner, because it's OK to fill the tank slowly in a minute or two. So the fat pipe has low impedance and the thin pipe has high impedance.

Back to the measurements for Hugo, when you look at 100 ohms you see something has gone wrong:

0.201601 = 4.49 x 4.49 / 100

but the measured power is only 0.12718 watts - quite a lot of power is missing: 0.201601 - 0.12718 = 0.074421. That's about 74 milliwatts that's gone missing. That's because Hugo isn't very powerful. And the numbers get worse as the impedance falls lower.

The lack of power only matters if the headphone needs lots of volts (water pressure). If the headphone is an IEM, which doesn't need lots of volts, then the formula is fine. For example, Shure SE 535:

http://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/hp/shure-se-535.php

has 26 ohms impedance. In the table for Hugo at 25 ohms there's 20.51 milliwatts of power available. According to that page, for 94dB SPL (that's quite loud) you need 4 milliwatts of power. So Hugo has plenty of power. You can turn it up even louder as there's more voltage range left and more power available.

Eventually you'll get crackling distortion from Hugo if you keep on increasing the volume. But you might kill the IEMs by playing them too loudly first.

 
 
Thank you for a great educational post!
 
Dec 6, 2016 at 7:41 PM Post #14,285 of 15,694
Nope you lost me at "the results are in two respects interesting"  :blink:

But hey i failed probability three times at uni

But please carry on those with maths


All he/she is saying is Power = V^2/Z and the result based on the Power:THD graph does not match the number in a prior thread.

All this technical talk is getting into the weeds. I still think Hugo needs an external amp to bring out the best of Hugo.
 
Dec 6, 2016 at 8:44 PM Post #14,286 of 15,694
 
Nope you lost me at "the results are in two respects interesting"  
blink.gif


But hey i failed probability three times at uni

But please carry on those with maths


All he/she is saying is Power = V^2/Z and the result based on the Power:THD graph does not match the number in a prior thread.

All this technical talk is getting into the weeds. I still think Hugo needs an external amp to bring out the best of Hugo.

 
Out of curiosity I just tried my HE1000 with the Hugo – instead of my now reference, the DAVE. I was really surprised about how close the Hugo gets to the DAVE when it comes to listening pleasure and sound quality. I could just use light blue, everything above would have hurt my ears. BTW, I never heard it clip at any level I've tried in the past, neither with HE1000 nor with HD 800 – so much to your implied «current limitation». In fact its headphone stage is much too loud for both headphones... but you can never have too much power reserve, as you know.
 
Have I already stated how good the HE1000 sounds driven by the Hugo? If I wouldn't own the DAVE, I'd be completely satisfied with this combo. As already mentioned, I've tried it with my various amps, and none of them came close to the level of immediacy, purity, dynamics and control the Hugo was capable of. That said, my headphones are modified and particularly equalized to sound at their best, so they don't need the euphonic colorations from additional electronics components. I warmly recommend you to jump over your own shadow and try this variant – you'd be surprised.
 
Dec 6, 2016 at 9:03 PM Post #14,287 of 15,694
we do not speak of amps here. Balanced akkkk whats dat.  
tongue.gif

 
Dec 6, 2016 at 9:27 PM Post #14,288 of 15,694
   
Out of curiosity I just tried my HE1000 with the Hugo – instead of my now reference, the DAVE. I was really surprised about how close the Hugo gets to the DAVE when it comes to listening pleasure and sound quality. I could just use light blue, everything above would have hurt my ears. BTW, I never heard it clip at any level I've tried in the past, neither with HE1000 nor with HD 800 – so much to your implied «current limitation». In fact its headphone stage is much too loud for both headphones... but you can never have too much power reserve, as you know.
 
Have I already stated how good the HE1000 sounds driven by the Hugo? If I wouldn't own the DAVE, I'd be completely satisfied with this combo. As already mentioned, I've tried it with my various amps, and none of them came close to the level of immediacy, purity, dynamics and control the Hugo was capable of. That said, my headphones are modified and particularly equalized to sound at their best, so they don't need the euphonic colorations from additional electronics components. I warmly recommend you to jump over your own shadow and try this variant – you'd be surprised.


Playing loud does not mean playing well. Any amp with the right voltage gain can make any headphone/speaker sound loud. Also, simply avoiding clipping doe not mean amp can drive any particular driver well.
 
Good bass is in part (very important part) a function of the damping factor, which I understand is very good on Hugo (almost zero output Z)
 
Amp that is not current limited (i.e., they double down on max power output every time output Z is halved) sounds open, with ease, flows well, not strained with lots happening in the music and a general sense of great power reserve.
 
Dec 6, 2016 at 9:31 PM Post #14,289 of 15,694
Ahh za voltage throughput. Let the current flow lads
 
Dec 6, 2016 at 10:38 PM Post #14,290 of 15,694
Jawed Very informative post, and excellent analogy to the toilet. :)

I don't have the Hugo, but I have the Mojo. Listening to my hd650s with mojo sounds good, but I definitely prefer the sound being amped with my Valhalla 2. I also eq everything. I'm not sure if it's a power thing or coloration thing, but either way I prefer adding an amp.
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 1:08 AM Post #14,291 of 15,694
@Jawed Very informative post, and excellent analogy to the toilet.
smily_headphones1.gif


I don't have the Hugo, but I have the Mojo. Listening to my hd650s with mojo sounds good, but I definitely prefer the sound being amped with my Valhalla 2. I also eq everything. I'm not sure if it's a power thing or coloration thing, but either way I prefer adding an amp.

I think Mojo and Hugo are in different league from what I have read in these posts. 
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 1:10 AM Post #14,292 of 15,694
Dec 7, 2016 at 2:08 AM Post #14,293 of 15,694
i have been listening through 3.5 inch single driver 8 ohm diy speakers directly connected to mojo as well as through headphones. the kind of realism and  transparency i get with direct connection to mojo can't be matched by adding the amp. the best part are the vocals which get some kind of magical treatment from mojo/hugo . vocals sound as if the singer is in front of you. because of this i don't care about the bass weight , richness or warmth as i know what i am listening is as good as real live performance. one thing i have experienced that because of extreme transparency both mojo and hugo reveal the effects of cold electronics to start with. after about an hour or so sound reaches to its potential . this may be true for other dacs also but those may not be  transparent enough to reveal the effect of cold electronics.  
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 4:30 AM Post #14,295 of 15,694
@chesebert, hugo is current limited ? can't believe this statement. did you even check the output impedance of hugo ? did you come across any other dac with such low output impedance ? if it was current limited , what was the purpose of such low output impedance ? I am not an expert but I have driven 8ohm single driver speakers directly from mojo and hugo to more than enough listening levels ( I barely needed to go beyond dark blue ) and never did I feel sound was restrained. can you drive 8ohm speakers directly from any other dac ? in fact current and low output impedance is the forte of these chord dacs . I drive my benchmark ahb2 power amp directly from hugo and share same RCA out to amp and powered sub by RCA splitter and believe me there is no degradation of sound by sharing same RCA to two devices. many have reported that adding two headphones simultaneously to hugo causes very little sound degradation/attenuation. how is that possible if hugo is current limited ? in fact once I attached my fiio x3 2k headphone out to my benchmark power amp and the sound became slow and devoid of any punch which is the indication of not enough current ability/ high output impedance. only one word for these chord dacs , transparency to transport you to the venue. I don't care about bass , warmth, sweetness as long as I feel the singers/performers in front of me courtesy mojo and hugo ( dave is out of reach of me but I am happy with these two little magical devices )

 
From that table of power, it looks to me the Hugo is both current limited and voltage limited. At low impedance, the power drops off due to not enough current and at high impedance it drops off due to not enough voltage. Most portable devices are voltage limited due to running off batteries so that is no surprise. High capacity batteries can supply lots of current for short periods into low impedance even if the volts are low (like when you short a 12V car battery), so it looks like the batteries are much better in the TT in terms of providing current. Also, most headphones designed for portable use will have low impedance due to the voltage limitation of portable devices and having a low output impedance will work better with these headphones (less power is wasted in the output impedance).
 

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