[Jawed]

But my inclination to to follow romaz's comment a while back that there must be more to a digital cable then just RFI rejection.

If you're using enough ferrites then they make the quality of the digital cable entirely irrelevant. Jitter in the digital signal has no effect on Chord DACs, so there's no other problem left to solve.

I'm lucky because I can compare USB and optical connections from my computer direct into DAVE, so I can "measure" whether I have enough ferrites by listening. Also, since I am using headphones direct from DAVE, there's no mains-powered power amp to introduce RF problems.

Most people posting about things like SoTM gear or ISO Regen or clocking or grounding SMPSs have not compared their "ultimate" setup with one that is purely optical on headphones direct from their DAC. Remembering to disconnect the electrical connection from their DAC while listening to optical, since RF on the electrical connection will degrade the sound quality of the optical connection (since the RF noise still gets into the DAC via the electrical cable).

Now playing: London Grammar - Metal & Dust

 

[rayl]

If you're using enough ferrites then they make the quality of the digital cable entirely irrelevant. Jitter in the digital signal has no effect on Chord DACs, so there's no other problem left to solve.

I'm lucky because I can compare USB and optical connections from my computer direct into DAVE, so I can "measure" whether I have enough ferrites by listening. Also, since I am using headphones direct from DAVE, there's no mains-powered power amp to introduce RF problems.

Most people posting about things like SoTM gear or ISO Regen or clocking or grounding SMPSs have not compared their "ultimate" setup with one that is purely optical on headphones direct from their DAC. Remembering to disconnect the electrical connection from their DAC while listening to optical, since RF on the electrical connection will degrade the sound quality of the optical connection (since the RF noise still gets into the DAC via the electrical cable).

Now playing: London Grammar - Metal & Dust

I’ve never tried it, but if jitter is not an issue, why not just use toslink from a sound card instead of usb? (If there are cards with wasapi)

I’ve avoided toslink for jitter concerns, but if truly not an issue...

 

[Jawed]

I’ve never tried it, but if jitter is not an issue, why not just use toslink from a sound card instead of usb?

Optical doesn't support all the sample rates. So on my computer there's no support for 88.2KHz or 176.4KHz (this is a fault of the Realtek audio hardware/driver) or any sample rate higher than 192KHz. 192KHz is the normal limit. I own almost no music at sample rates that optical doesn't work with, so it isn't a big problem. But I use USB just because I have no limits on what music I can play.

Looking forward to Rob's Davina test music...

(Though Chord DACs won't play my mono and 32KHz music files, which is a bit annoying - so they have to go through Windows Mixer).

(If there are cards with wasapi)

I personally wouldn't use a lack of WASAPI support as a reason not to use optical.

I’ve avoided toslink for jitter concerns, but if truly not an issue...

It seems you have the option. DAVE comes with a 1m optical cable in the box. Just try it.

London Grammar - Wild Eyed

 

[dmance]

I’ve never tried it, but if jitter is not an issue, why not just use toslink from a sound card instead of usb? (If there are cards with wasapi)

I’ve avoided toslink for jitter concerns, but if truly not an issue...

I believe accurate clocking is an issue - related to jitter. With TOSLINK the source device (CD player, PC, etc.) clocks the data ...whereas with USB, its asynchronous so the DAC's much more accurate clock requests the samples. Perhaps now all this is moot since most DACs have excellent jitter reduction regardless of SPDIF source. So, for me, the real basis for using USB is that its ubiquitous across all PC devices (obviously).

 

[ecwl]

I believe accurate clocking is an issue - related to jitter. With TOSLINK the source device (CD player, PC, etc.) clocks the data ...whereas with USB, its asynchronous so the DAC's much more accurate clock requests the samples. Perhaps now all this is moot since most DACs have excellent jitter reduction regardless of SPDIF source. So, for me, the real basis for using USB is that its ubiquitous across all PC devices (obviously).

My understanding is that even though most DACs have excellent jitter rejection/reduction from Toslink, inevitably, the de-jitter mechanism would still create noise internally in the DAC that'll mess with the final output. I think this is one of the reasons why Chord DACs use Pulse Array DACs so that these phenomenon would not increase jitter, as opposed to DSD/PWM DACs or chip-based DACs.

 

[TheAttorney]

But how can a USB cable give a "warmer/richer presentation"? I am assuming by filtering out RF or EMI in which case it might be that it still might be cheaper to look at ferrites first.

Personally, I prefer not to attribute tonal characteristics to cables (analogue or digital). I typically hear differences in the handling of detail, dynamics, transients etc, which may sometimes appear to affect tone (e.g.what I consider to be HFsmearing may give the impression of a brighter tone, but the tonal aspect I feel is a secondary side effect, not the true difference).

But many, many enthusiasts do like to attribute tonal qualities to cables, possibly because that might be the first thing that strikes them. So I'm relaying the comments of many enthusiasts that have commented that the Lush USB cable is particularly warm sounding. A good example, and also a good summary of one person's view on a multi USB cable shoot out, is Jay's review at audiobacon of the Curious USB cable compared to several others, including Lush, at widely different price points.

However, Jay is another one who has not yet received the Ferrites memo, so unfortunately we don't know how his opinion would have altered if all the cables had had lots of ferrites

 

[rgs9200m]

I would say the going price for a used DAVE in very good condition is about $7000 to $7500 (for silver at least). Maybe black is a bit more ($100-$200?) since the wait for new one is a little longer I've heard.

Actually, the silver model in the flesh is very nice IMHO since it's not at all distracting/ brightish/aluminumy, but a nice deep darkish metallic (that looks thick and solid and a bit 3D) that I find nice to look at (all subjective here). The silver doesn't look cheap at all.

And the black still has lots of silver buttons that stand out more. I prefer the of-a-piece look of the silver now since it looks like it was milled from a solid block of silver.

I actually care more about how my electronics look more than my headphones since when I'm listening to music I can see the equipment, but I can't see the headphones.

Anyway, everyone should really hear how great the DAVE/LCD4 combo is. I can even listen to all my Beatles stuff (including lots of rare stuff / alternative unreleased versions/recording sessions that are now available) with great depth and reach with no annoying digital glare or brashness). It's the next best thing to DSD.

I use NO EQ AT ALL with any of my headphones with any of my music with the DAVE.

Essentially miraculous.

OK, blogging finished here...

 

[bigfatpaulie]

That's likely fair.

 

[Triode User]

I would say the going price for a used DAVE in very good condition is about $7000 to $7500 (for silver at least). Maybe black is a bit more ($100-$200?) since the wait for new one is a little longer I've heard.

The used price in the UK if and when they come up is about £6,000 in perfect condition.

 

[rgs9200m]

Interesting that it is more costly in Britain than in the US. Maybe it's a currency thing.

 

[bigfatpaulie]

Canadian list is well over $14k as well.

 

[xxx1313]

Interesting that it is more costly in Britain than in the US. Maybe it's a currency thing.

It is more a VAT thing probably. Europeans pay much tax.

 

[rgs9200m]

Sympathies on the VAT to all Eurofriends here. Time to listen to Taxman on Revolver.

 

[rayl]

Ironically, I had to install the Windows 10 Creators Edition driver last night, because I'd just installed Tidal. This was because in exclusive mode from Tidal I got a blue screen crash in the Chord driver cdh76864.sys. Twice.

It's too soon for me to report if, on my system, Windows mixer USB output with this version of the Chord driver behaves better or worse.

Now playing - Julien Baker - Appointments

To close out my soft clicks with Chord Windows 10 Creators drivers exploration... I ended up putting Windows mixer through an S/PDIF converter, which while limited to 192kHz is fine as I only intend to have Windows mixer for 44.1kHz setting.

I can either go direct USB for Tidal or through S/PDIF as well (as I don't have > 192 content). With my very short cable w/2 ferrites, I don't notice negative impacts with BNC input, but I've never had a noisy RF environment here.

To conclude, my findings are:

1. There is indeed a bug with Chord Win drivers that causes soft clicks when playing through Windows mixer at lower sampling rates (essentially anything < 352.8kHz)
2. WASAPI mode with Chord drivers is fine even at 44.1kHz. And WASAPI mode works correctly with Tidal, reporting 16, 24 and 32 bit word size support (see #4 below)
3. Win 10 Creators stock drivers work fine with Windows mixer and DAVE, even at 44.1kHz
4. But DAVE does not work 100% correctly with Windows 10 Creators stock drivers in WASAPI mode. The issue seems to be that DAVE reports itself as supporting 32 bit *only* at various sampling rates when using Win 10 Creators stock driver. For something like foobar2000, that's fine -- foobar will just pad to 32 bits. But Tidal insists on matching the word size, else it falls back to Windows mixer mode. By comparison, stock Win 10 Creators driver with S/PDIF converter reports both 16 and 24 bits support and works correctly with Tidal.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I am at peace. Though I really wish Chord would fix the Win drivers in Win mixer mode. It's incredible that we put up with these glitches when we like the underlying product (as it sounds like this has been a driver bug for several generations of Chord DACs), but would immediately chuck a lesser product out of irritation....

 

[Triode User]

To close out my soft clicks with Chord Windows 10 Creators drivers exploration... I ended up putting Windows mixer through an S/PDIF converter, which while limited to 192kHz is fine as I only intend to have Windows mixer for 44.1kHz setting.

I can either go direct USB for Tidal or through S/PDIF as well (as I don't have > 192 content). With my very short cable w/2 ferrites, I don't notice negative impacts with BNC input, but I've never had a noisy RF environment here.

To conclude, my findings are:

1. There is indeed a bug with Chord Win drivers that causes soft clicks when playing through Windows mixer at lower sampling rates (essentially anything < 352.8kHz)
2. WASAPI mode with Chord drivers is fine even at 44.1kHz. And WASAPI mode works correctly with Tidal, reporting 16, 24 and 32 bit word size support (see #4 below)
3. Win 10 Creators stock drivers work fine with Windows mixer and DAVE, even at 44.1kHz
4. But DAVE does not work 100% correctly with Windows 10 Creators stock drivers in WASAPI mode. The issue seems to be that DAVE reports itself as supporting 32 bit *only* at various sampling rates when using Win 10 Creators stock driver. For something like foobar2000, that's fine -- foobar will just pad to 32 bits. But Tidal insists on matching the word size, else it falls back to Windows mixer mode. By comparison, stock Win 10 Creators driver with S/PDIF converter reports both 16 and 24 bits support and works correctly with Tidal.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I am at peace. Though I really wish Chord would fix the Win drivers in Win mixer mode. It's incredible that we put up with these glitches when we like the underlying product (as it sounds like this has been a driver bug for several generations of Chord DACs), but would immediately chuck a lesser product out of irritation....

Have you tried contacting Chord direct or through your dealer with problem you appear to be having? Or even message Rob Watts diredt on here?