CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[Sonic77]

Retire? He's just getting started

 

[Torq]

  Not true.  Everything has a sound and nothing is completely transparent, not even the DAVE and so the less components you have in your analog chain, the better if transparency is your goal.  As Rob has indicated, even the solder used contributes to the sound you hear.  For the DAVE, the most transparent preamp is no additional preamp, Linn or otherwise.
 
 

 
I said "pretty much", which is a qualifier not an absolute.
 
DAVE can't drive interesting speakers, nor can it act as a phone stage, and in a multi-source system a pre-amp is required - otherwise we're switching cables to change sources.
 
So while a pre-amp might be undesirable, that doesn't mean it isn't necessary.
 
Irrelevant if you're only using headphones ... I'm not.

 

[Torq]

And now I really am out.
 
PM me if you expect a response.

 

[Mojo ideas]

Well, that's not my intent.

I'm sufficiently impressed with DAVE that it makes me wonder what else he could pull off with changes in other areas.  Maybe there aren't any.  It's just idle, interested, speculation on my part.  As an engineer myself, though not working in audio, it's all interesting stuff.

And it's not that I'm questioning his design choices, well not in most cases, again ... I'm just wondering where things might go.  Things tend to move forward,  especially where technology is involved and I very much doubt that DAVE is the very last word on audio reproduction.  It MIGHT be today ... but I doubt that'll hold true forever.

Now, things like audible noise when DAVEs display is active do bother me though - as an engineer at least.  Not really a factor once I'm actually listening to music, but it feels a bit sloppy to me.

The Linn power-supply is hardly "over-built".  It's used in their low-power components as well as their 4x 200 watt amplifiers.  No, their DSM units don't need those kind of reserves but the power amps do and they have class-leading transient response and linearity (the patents on the technology are freely available to read ... really quite clever).  And their pre-amps are the quietest I've ever heard or measured.  Significantly bettering much more expensive, "exotic" units.  So they're definitely getting something out of that work.

I think you're being a bit too defensive here.

The results speak for themselves and I've said multiple times that I think DAVE is the best sounding digital audio I've ever heard.

That doesn't change the fact that, aesthetically, and ergonomically, there are things I don't like about it.  That's fine.  You're not going to convince me that the look of the thing, or it's interface is great no matter how much you talk about all the considerations that went into it.  It's opinion ... that's all.  I have immense respect for Rob as an engineer and for what he's accomplished.  I don't work in audio ... my last design goes around the earth over and over at very high speeds ... and has a very different set of necessary criteria and engineering needs.  Some of the issues intersect ... some don't.  It raises questions ... that's all.

Since you're here ... how do I get someone at your company to respond to support issues?  Your dealer network, at least in the PNW and when I was over in the UK recently doesn't seem to be able to handle it and the contacts I had with Edd (I know he's in marketing) and, I think it was Chris, were not helpful.

Really concerning support issues you first point of contact should be your dealer although they may be new to Chord as the PNW has not been a area that we have had incredibly long dealer relationships and if they are not helpful then the distributor which is Bluebird based in Toronto. However if you feel you have not received the support you required even from Edd at Chord who is indeed our Media manager. you of course may ask to speak with myself of Matt our director of Manufacturing or better still write, as we are usually busy and we will be happy to reply.

 

[Crgreen]

But how many of those will there be? Even if DAVINA is a huge success and used by all recording studios, am I right in thinking that it can be used for digitising analogue recordings and making new digital recording, but what about everything in between - existing digital recordings? Might it not be some years before the benefits of the A/D conversion can be heard on a significant number of recordings? Nice, but I might well be dead by then!

 

[x RELIC x]

Yes that is a very good question!

What will happen to Chord Electronics the day Rob decide to retire??

Its not that easy to hire a new Rob Jr that can replace him / you Rob.

Wounder if they got a good plan for this.

Then about DAVE's performance potential i think we havent even heard 60% of its full potential yet, because we do not have so good recordnings to feed it, even if it say MQA , DSD 512 or PCM 768 on the lable.

I think in a couple of years we can get full benefit of DAVEś capabillity.

Like a 8k HDR OLED TV, we do not got any content to provide for it, so the picture looks very similar to a ordinary 1080p TV if your source is just 576i ( Red Book CD) content.

Just wait and see what DAVINA can bring us

Well, I had the opportunity to test the first HDRI TV in 2002, which used an array of dimmable LEDs in a very tight/dense configuration (unlike the crap they have now). The unit would get face melting hot and was about 3 feet thick, but the native contrast on this prototype was STUNNING compared to every other display I've seen until OLED was released. Even with the 864x486 content we were producing back then it was glorious. The blacks were completely black because the back light shut off completely behind that pixel. The whites were incredibly brilliant because of the intensity of the LEDs they chose. So, as you may guess it isn't always the resolution but the fundamental portrayal of the content that can make the most impact. Somewhat like the DAVE with audio, from 16/44.1 to DXD.

 

[romaz]

  Sod it.
 
I'm going to bow out of this thread.
 
We'll see where DAVE winds up when I'm done with my auditioning.  If idle speculation at what might be achievable in the future is just going to go this way, I don't need to be a part of it.  And if Chord's perspective is that DAVE can never be improved on, and everything possible has been considered and addressed (which is how the responses read any time anyone throws up a question or an observation), then there's not much more to pay attention to.
 
Kudos to Rob on an amazing achievement ... both with DAVE and Mojo ... but I'm out.

Come back any time. Debate is good as long as it is respectful.  Often times, there isn't right or wrong, just personal preference but be prepared to be challenged if you make claims that others don't agree with.  
 
As for the DAVE not being able to be improved upon, I'm not sure where that came from.  Nothing is perfect and I think we all expect better from Rob and from Chord as technology improves.  It's the anticipation of what tomorrow brings that excites many of us and why "end game" is not a realistic term.
 
As for preamps being unnecessary, you're right, sometimes they are and my post included component switching and adding tone as two good reasons.  In fact, I think the preamp is a more suitable tone control device than the DAC.
 
The next time I make it up to Seattle, I'll give you a ping.  Maybe we invite @shuttlepod along and catch a live event.

 

[Mojo ideas]

Yes that is a very good question!

What will happen to Chord Electronics the day Rob decide to retire??

Its not that easy to hire a new Rob Jr that can replace him / you Rob.

Wounder if they got a good plan for this.

Then about DAVE's performance potential i think we havent even heard 60% of its full potential yet, because we do not have so good recordnings to feed it, even if it say MQA , DSD 512 or PCM 768 on the lable.

I think in a couple of years we can get full benefit of DAVEś capabillity.

Like a 8k HDR OLED TV, we do not got any content to provide for it, so the picture looks very similar to a ordinary 1080p TV if your source is just 576i ( Red Book CD) content.

Just wait and see what DAVINA can bring us

We plan to map Robs brain and up load him into a new Dac designing program

 

[bigfatpaulie]

It might just end up like Ferrari after Sergio Pininfarina.
 
It could be much worse

 

[JaZZ]

  As for preamps being unnecessary, you're right, sometimes they are and my post included component switching and adding tone as two good reasons.  In fact, I think the preamp is a more suitable tone control device than the DAC.

 
Analogue EQ? No way! – I do my equalizing before the DAC (in the X5 II or in foobar).
 
 

We plan to map Rob's brain and upload him into a new Dac designing program

 
Make sure to have a large enough memory at your disposal!

 

[romaz]

   
Analogue EQ? No way! – I do my equalizing before the DAC (in the X5 II or in foobar).
 

I'm talking about tubes.  Equalizing before the DAC works, too.

 

[Jawed]

If idle speculation at what might be achievable in the future is just going to go this way, I don't need to be a part of it.  And if Chord's perspective is that DAVE can never be improved on, and everything possible has been considered and addressed (which is how the responses read any time anyone throws up a question or an observation), then there's not much more to pay attention to.

Rob's said himself that to obtain 16-bit resolution in filtering requires about a million taps. The problem is how to code that. 164,000 taps was difficult, apparently.

How many of the biggest FPGAs are required to get to a million taps? Maybe in 7 years' time it'll be possible with a single FPGA? About the time that DAVE is due to be replaced, in the same way as DAVE replaced QBD76 (which dates from 2009)?

 

[Beolab]

Well, I had the opportunity to test the first HDRI TV in 2002, which used an array of dimmable LEDs in a very tight/dense configuration (unlike the crap they have now). The unit would get face melting hot and was about 3 feet thick, but the native contrast on this prototype was STUNNING compared to every other display I've seen until OLED was released. Even with the 864x486 content we were producing back then it was glorious. The blacks were completely black because the back light shut off completely behind that pixel. The whites were incredibly brilliant because of the intensity of the LEDs they chose. So, as you may guess it isn't always the resolution but the fundamental portrayal of the content that can make the most impact. Somewhat like the DAVE with audio, from 16/44.1 to DXD.

Yes, that was what i meant if you read again, it is not about the resolution of the tracks, its all about the raw studio A/D recording quality, and i think DAVE got more potential to reveal the full potential with great recordings nevertheless what resolution they got. But i think i can only count like 20-30 really good recordings, that are almost flawless, of all 100.000+ of tracks i have heard, so DAVE are a litte before its time in my opinion, because it is so transparent and revealing so you hear all flaws in the recording production from the studio / concert hall, i need better recordings for sure, to be fully delighted.

Yes the TV you are discussing where a Canadian brand named BrightView and Dolby Labs bought them up just to get benefit of their HDR technology just 4 years later.

 

[Jawed]

To be fair, work on DAVINA (ADC) might lead Rob in a new direction. Hugo lead him in a new direction...

 

[x RELIC x]

Yes, that was what i meant if you read again, it is not about the resolution of the tracks, its all about the raw studio A/D recording quality, and i think DAVE got more potential to reveal the full potential with great recordings nevertheless what resolution they got. But i think i can only count like 20-30 really good recordings, that are almost flawless, of all 100.000+ of tracks i have heard, so DAVE are a litte before its time in my opinion, because it is so transparent and revealing so you hear all flaws in the recording production from the studio / concert hall, i need better recordings for sure, to be fully delighted.

Yes the TV you are discussing where a Canadian brand named BrightView and Dolby Labs bought them up just to get benefit of their HDR technology just 4 years later.

Yup, you know about the tech.

And yes, I got your point precisely initially.