[denis1976]

That would be the tonality of the devices. Output power has nothing to do with a more full bodied or powerful sound.

i agree with you, i am only saying that power on paper does not mean much, i perfer a 250mw powerfull sound than a 1.1w thin sound ,only my taste....

 

[seanwee]

i agree with you, i am only saying that power on paper does not mean much, i perfer a 250mw powerfull sound than a 1.1w thin sound ,only my taste....

That's a given. You only "need" more output power if you have inefficient cans.

Even a cheap source can have gobs of power. Nothing special about that.

 

[Andykong]

Sorry for missing, again, was on WM1Z 3.5 SE ... gotta mod it to balanced, obvious it's power hungry cans ..

Please keep the K120 as-is, Antique headphones has its own charm and charisma, add a portable amp if you need more power, not worth to mod the K120 IMHO. You won't be able to appreciate the full performance of K120 with portable players anyway.

Andy, Glad to have your reply : )
when we met at Meze, we're both trying out the RAI IEM, and agreed it's pretty nice one and told a bit bad contact on my N5II 2.5 bal out, the bit tall and big guy
So K120 was in bag after experimenting those Cayin wonders. Oh Man, I love the sound pairing with iDAC-6 + HA-1A MKII, not with my test track, but feel the fullness out of it, feel more details on N8 + 300B, but somehow the bass got distorted, as said may be too powerful for the old cans
Here I got the Impression on N8 is comparable to desktop, pairing with N8 tube SE, it feel like 70% close to the desktop setup !! and really love Cayin ability to keep the signature across their build

And the page you posted is as impressive as the N8, havn't seen this measurements since the day reseaching K120, and correct, it's the one in report. it's so informative !!! but for the sensitivity, much less than it's ads leaflet claimed 112dB/mW vs measured 88.8dB/V .. no wonder on paper it should be similar to my E5000, but in fact it's way too hungry for power.
So on N8 when switch high-power mode and max vol, I hear the loudness a bit more than long term listen, sorry can't really tell the rough dB number on that .. but still the sound fullness is extraordinary
and just a fun test on the "unnamed" headphone amp in Audio-Technica booth, it used to feed the new ADX5000 .. and I pluged the K120 in, then need to keep turning the vol knob until the vol LED reach the very last one to have listening level .. may be all power goes to balanced jack

Hopefully not too off topic, in report the bass response is week, since ear cup is flat shallow gum edge, can't keep air tight around ears, so mine got a bit mod by putting a K240 optional velvet earpad on it and some inside tweak, let's have a look, feel more balanced sound, back to study the FR graph, so exciting for this grandpa cans !!

I meet this group of people at Munich, and talked to them regarding audio equipment testing, they really helpful and conducted a lot of thorough test on products that we wouldn't expect, I am glad they did this to K120 too.

I have find an image of the original K120 manual and it described 5 different variation of K120, you can check it out here. The specification on the manual did mention something like 112dB/mW @1kHz, but I am not sure if the sensitivity remain the same across 5 variations.

Again, I am glad that N8 can pair with the K120 and still perform decently. 600ohm 88dB is indeed a very demanding load for portable player. If like you said the N8 can deliver 70% of iDAC-6 and HA1A-mkII combo at this loading, that has exceed my expectation already.

 

[Andykong]

Desktop equivalent is only counting when the performances is up to par. There are several desktop setups, and some is pretty negligible. Most importantly, how will the N8 perform ? That is what bring the curiosity to me.

The one thing for sure is that my Dx200 can have 1.2W output and 2700mA on it amp module, still playing DSD512 from computer fed over USB or natively from MicroSD. The thing that not many desktop system can do, even HDV820 from Sennheiser, now, that is something worthy of desktop equivalent. Now, if anyone wonder, I only use headphones and no iems. The Dx200 playing DSD512 is only behind my LKS004

Both the Wm1Z and r2r7 are behind in DSD performances.

So, how is the N8 under this circumstances ? Very interesting, I will keep following and see.

To those of you, who called N8 desktop equivalent, do you mind telling me your setup ?

My desktop consists of Stax Sr-009/009S, KG T2, Pinkfaun dedicated built PC with Linear Power Supply, Furman References IT15, LKS004, AGD R2R7. All upgraded cables around.

Couples pictures to show it.

I have no idea why you have insisted in this comparison with N8. Maybe there is some misunderstanding regarding the concept of desktop grade/desktop equivalent?

N8 offers three digital outputs: I2S, USB Audio and Coaxial. I won't say these are desktop grade digital connections, it doesn't make sense, all digital connections must conformed to the same standard in terms of impedance and pin assignment, we don't have different standard or practice on digital connections, in regardless desktop or portable.

N8 offers two line out: 3.5mm single-ended and 4.4mm balanced, and they are rated at 2.1V and 4.3V respectively. Besides, they are fit for audio equipments with input impedance higher then 10 kΩ, which is not uncommon in desktop systems. I call these desktop grade line out because they are different form a lot of portable players, Some of our previous DAPs are designed with 3.5mm line out from 1V, 1.5V to 1.7V respectively, these line out works with portable amplifier alright because quite a lot of portable headphone amplifier (including our C5) are high-gain based, Sot the term "desktop grade" is an indicator of meeting a specific industrial or de facto standard and is helping the users to understand the intended connectivity of the player.

Cayin have, in more then one occasion, emphasis that N8 is not comparable with desktop products:

I can't comment on the DAC performance of N8 when compare to desktop products such as simaudio 280D, I honestly have no idea about that. In our experience, a properly designed and executed desktop DAC should have a lot of advantage over portable implementation under the same budget. Without the space and battery constraints, choice of components are flexible, we can use discrete components instead of Op-Amp when we prefer, and we can always feed the components with optimum power instead of compromising the power setting in order to maintain duration of operation between battery charge.(cf: here)

We want to clarify that the HIGH2 mode are not meant for bringing full size high impedance headphones such as Sennheiser HD800 family into portable applications. These headphones require lots of current to control the diagrams movement accurately (or the magnetic mechanism in case of planars) and the battery in portable DAPs is hardly capable of doing that satisfactory.(cf: here)

Cayin has been very consistent in this topic, we did claim or promote our DAP as a desktop equivalent on DAC resolution or headphone amplifier power rating. On top of underlying different between these products, we also think the statement itself is not meaningful, be reminded that the little desktop headphone amplifier form Cayin is rated at 7000mW+7000mW @32Ω, If Cayin is going to use our own desktop headphone amplifier as reference, hardly any portable is desktop equivalent.

In addition, unlike Line out feature, there is no industrial or de facto standard on desktop DAC resolution or desktop headphone amp power requirements. So anyone can claim the portable device as desktop equivalent as long as they can find a desktop headphone amplifier that share similar output rating with their player, and logically, you cannot falsify their claim like you did in my quote.

For example, if I were using Pioneer U-05s which is rated at 180mW + 180mW(32Ω) single-ended and 300mW + 300mW(32Ω) balanced, I can certainly claim that my DAP is desktop equivalent if the DAP of my DAP is comparable or better then U-05s. There is nothing wrong in this claim, and you cannot falsify my claim simply because your desktop system is more powerful then my desktop system. In a nutshell, since you cannot falsify U-05s as a desktop headphone amplifier (this is factual and cannot be falsified anyway), On the other hand, if you were using U-05s and I challenge you because I am using a more powerful iHA-6, than I am being illogical.

For the record, iBasso Amp8 module is rated at 6.2Vrms while N8 4.4 phone out is rated at around 7.6Vrms, so if you insisted in comparing the output power, then both Amp8 and N8 are very respectable on this regard. You have mentioned the Amp8 delivers 2700mA, but according to iBasso, the "transistors used on the buffer stage have a 2700mAh output current rating" (cf here) and that is very different from saying the overall current capability of Amp 8 is 2700mA. For example, the DNR and SNR of AK4497EQ is 131dB (mono mode), that doesn't mean I can claim the DNR and SNR of N8 is 131dB.

 

[Whitigir]

Thanks @Andykong for the detailed post, and very fair view on your own product. Cayin has made a very special portable player with Korg Tubes as the first in the market, and that is very remarkable by itself, and also is of which attracting my attentions. Will be keeping an eye on your flagship

 

[Whitigir]

@Andykong your N8 I2S, what is the specifications that it is able to output

 

[seanwee]

Only Amp8 has 1.2W of power, and it was released last month. When did you compare, and on what amp module ? Also Dx200 has 150 volume knot where 1Z is 120 only

Regardless, I am curious about whomever claim that N8 is the equivalent of Desktop, what desktop do they have

Power delivery is not about voltage swing only, but also amp per hour. Only Amp8 can have 2700mAH. Now, I see why you were not satisfied with amp6. I was not satisfied with Amp4S, and agreed that 1Z sounded with more authorities before Amp8. Things changed with Amp8 though.

Let’s get back on topic of N8, I am still waiting to see whose claims and what their desktop systems of N8 equivalent setups are

Audio GD R8 + Nfb-1 amp

Only speaking in terms of soundstage size.

 

[Whitigir]

Audio GD R8 + Nfb-1 amp

Only speaking in terms of soundstage size.

That is very nice that you grabbed the R8 as soon as you could. However, R2R from AGD is notorious for USB connections. Are you feeding it I2S ? I couldn’t stand that upgraded Amanero in r2r7, let alone the R8 without LPS in it. Anyways, good to know what you are comparing it to

 

[Quadfather]

Please keep the K120 as-is, Antique headphones has its own charm and charisma, add a portable amp if you need more power, not worth to mod the K120 IMHO. You won't be able to appreciate the full performance of K120 with portable players anyway.




I meet this group of people at Munich, and talked to them regarding audio equipment testing, they really helpful and conducted a lot of thorough test on products that we wouldn't expect, I am glad they did this to K120 too.

I have find an image of the original K120 manual and it described 5 different variation of K120, you can check it out here. The specification on the manual did mention something like 112dB/mW @1kHz, but I am not sure if the sensitivity remain the same across 5 variations.

Again, I am glad that N8 can pair with the K120 and still perform decently. 600ohm 88dB is indeed a very demanding load for portable player. If like you said the N8 can deliver 70% of iDAC-6 and HA1A-mkII combo at this loading, that has exceed my expectation already.

I have found "synergy" to be huge. I simply plan on finding a headphone that gives me a desktop equivalent when paired with the N8.

 

[Andykong]

@Andykong your N8 I2S, what is the specifications that it is able to output

It is designed to serve as digital transport to our I2S equiped DAC.

All our I2S implementations are compatible with pin assignment published by PS Audio. We'll test our implementation with PS audio DAC but we can't guarantee compatible with other DACs that are supposePS Audio compatible.

 

[Whitigir]

It is designed to serve as digital transport to our I2S equiped DAC.

All our I2S implementations are compatible with pin assignment published by PS Audio. We'll test our implementation with PS audio DAC but we can't guarantee compatible with other DACs that are supposePS Audio compatible.

Thanks! Can I know more about the output specifications? Like what sample rate and format ?

 

[Andykong]

I have found "synergy" to be huge. I simply plan on finding a headphone that gives me a desktop equivalent when paired with the N8.

That will have to wait till we launch our DAP, when reviews and user impressions are readily available. For someone who planned to venture into this mission, my only advice is to start from full size headphones that are DAP-friendly by design: Focal, Ultrasone, Meze, Final, Kennerton, ...

 

[Andykong]

Thanks! Can I know more about the output specifications? Like what sample rate and format ?

My original schedule is to explain the line out features after I published the headphone output diagram and specifications. Maybe I can switch the sequence and write about the digital section first. Stay tune, should be able to do that in 1-2 days, and I mean "working days".

 

[Saltyfatboy]

As usual learnt a lot from Andy's post, but wanna express my apology for the inappropriate impression that made your time on few essay posts to firm disclaimer.

I don't have my own desktop setup yet, since just start exploring what a headphone can do with suitable sources. even I do have the Cayin iDAC-6 .. but got a little input issue and waiting return from repair.
And my reference on listening is from my dad B&W 808 speakers and tube pre-amp/300B amp behind .. certainly didn't think of headphone need a rack-ful of equipments to power, so my perspective on desktop would be like, let say, an iDAC-6 with HA1A-MKII, sorry for my ignorance on this interesting field.

Just to end, my opinion only particular case on pairing DAP with inefficient headphone from the SE output and the fullness feel closer to what I hear from desktop setup. Here again sorry for misunstanding or misleading perspective on "desktop-comparable".

 

[Andykong]

As usual learnt a lot from Andy's post, but wanna express my apology for the inappropriate impression that made your time on few essay posts to firm disclaimer.

I don't have my own desktop setup yet, since just start exploring what a headphone can do with suitable sources. even I do have the Cayin iDAC-6 .. but got a little input issue and waiting return from repair.
And my reference on listening is from my dad B&W 808 speakers and tube pre-amp/300B amp behind .. certainly didn't think of headphone need a rack-ful of equipments to power, so my perspective on desktop would be like, let say, an iDAC-6 with HA1A-MKII, sorry for my ignorance on this interesting field.

Just to end, my opinion only particular case on pairing DAP with inefficient headphone from the SE output and the fullness feel closer to what I hear from desktop setup. Here again sorry for misunstanding or misleading perspective on "desktop-comparable".

I hope you'll understand the reasons behind these disclaimer. Users are free to do whatever test or to use the DAP for whatever purpose they consider "appropriate", you don't have to feel sorry about that, or reluctant to share your experience for whatever reason. On the other hand, sharing or comment from brand representative can be treated as "official" recommendation and that is a different game. I can either skip your post and didn't get involve (which probably is considered as the wise move from business point of view), or to share my opinion after a disclaimer. I picked the later because I believe if I do it correctly, will become a win-win outcome to everyone.

I do agree that HA-1Amk2 is a perfect starting point for vintage headphone lovers. It is singled ended and designed with 600ohm loading in mind, these two attributes are common requirements for vintage headphones users dated all the way before the concept of balanced headphone.