[Andykong]

It seems this DAP has a serious DAC setup in it

Maybe the best in any present DAP ?

How serious is it if i compare it to Ie a simaudio 280D (i use to own) , or the onboard DAC in my Hegel H360?

i had to sell my simaudio to afford a new amp

i know the DAC cant power my Dyn speakers , but can i use it as a satisfying DAC ?

Im thinking i can use it as a stand alone DAC , ie if im at a mates , and his DAC may be out of service , or just a bad one ?

As an aside , in the future , it would be sweet as heck to own a DAP this good , where i can run off hydro or the battery , without taxing the battery atall

Just being able to switch the battery line off and chhosin electricity

Im not even sure this is a do able?

I can't comment on the DAC performance of N8 when compare to desktop products such as simaudio 280D, I honestly have no idea about that. In our experience, a properly designed and executed desktop DAC should have a lot of advantage over portable implementation under the same budget. Without the space and battery constraints, choice of components are flexible, we can use discrete components instead of Op-Amp when we prefer, and we can always feed the components with optimum power instead of compromising the power setting in order to maintain duration of operation between battery charge.

N8 comes with 2 line out features: 3.5mm single-ended line out is dedicated connector and is rated at 2.1V, the 4.4mm balanced line out is shared with phne out and is rated at 4.3V, so both line out are considered "desktop equivalent". The N8 will come with a 4.4mm to dual XLR adapter, so connecting N8 to desktop preamp or integrated amplifier should be straight forward, you can check out the adapters in here and here:

The battery in N8 is permanently connected, you can't disable it from the power management circuit, therefore we do not recommend to use N8 as a desktop replacement in the long run.

 

[Saltyfatboy]

Yes that is true. But the 4.4mm jack has both negative contacts and a ground which allows convertion to both SE or balanced output.

In case anyone is wondering, the balanced output of the WM1Z is weak. The WM1Z and N5ii were volume matched in the above picture and the N5ii outputs just 150mw into 32ohms. I'd guess it does 200mw into 32ohms, tops. A far cry from the N8's output power.

Cool, good to know the ground can be useful on jack conversion
for the power on WM1Z wonder how my fd's ATH-ADX5000 sound from 4.4 bal .. it's 420ohm cans too

 

[Rozeqloud]

I can't comment on the DAC performance of N8 when compare to desktop products such as simaudio 280D, I honestly have no idea about that. In our experience, a properly designed and executed desktop DAC should have a lot of advantage over portable implementation under the same budget. Without the space and battery constraints, choice of components are flexible, we can use discrete components instead of Op-Amp when we prefer, and we can always feed the components with optimum power instead of compromising the power setting in order to maintain duration of operation between battery charge.

N8 comes with 2 line out features: 3.5mm single-ended line out is dedicated connector and is rated at 2.1V, the 4.4mm balanced line out is shared with phne out and is rated at 4.3V, so both line out are considered "desktop equivalent". The N8 will come with a 4.4mm to dual XLR adapter, so connecting N8 to desktop preamp or integrated amplifier should be straight forward, you can check out the adapters in here and here:

The battery in N8 is permanently connected, you can't disable it from the power management circuit, therefore we do not recommend to use N8 as a desktop replacement in the long run.

Thanks Andy mate for another informed reply

 

[Whitigir]

You simply do not adopt an SE into a Sony 4.4mm balanced, period. I would be wary to buy anyone unit which had gone through this part

 

[Whitigir]

Desktop equivalent is only counting when the performances is up to par. There are several desktop setups, and some is pretty negligible. Most importantly, how will the N8 perform ? That is what bring the curiosity to me.

The one thing for sure is that my Dx200 can have 1.2W output and 2700mA on it amp module, still playing DSD512 from computer fed over USB or natively from MicroSD. The thing that not many desktop system can do, even HDV820 from Sennheiser, now, that is something worthy of desktop equivalent. Now, if anyone wonder, I only use headphones and no iems. The Dx200 playing DSD512 is only behind my LKS004

Both the Wm1Z and r2r7 are behind in DSD performances.

So, how is the N8 under this circumstances ? Very interesting, I will keep following and see.

To those of you, who called N8 desktop equivalent, do you mind telling me your setup ?

My desktop consists of Stax Sr-009/009S, KG T2, Pinkfaun dedicated built PC with Linear Power Supply, Furman References IT15, LKS004, AGD R2R7. All upgraded cables around.

Couples pictures to show it.

 

[Saltyfatboy]

I didn't recall anyone wearing K120 at Meze booth, if I do, I definitely will check out run after you trying to check out your headphone.

Have you taken any photo of N8 in action with K120? That should be very interesting. The K120 is the first headphone product from AKG and dated all the way back to 1949 and was in production for around 20 years. I haven't heard this headphone before, only read about it here and there. When you said non-DYN version, so you refer to the very first metal cylinder based? Since a lot of reader are not familiar with this headphone, maybe you can tell us a bit more so that we can understand the test you have described here. I read from other site that the sensitivity is around 88dB, so it is a high impedance low sensitivity headphone, a lot more demanding then my good old 600ohm HD540G and HD250.

I don't have the 600 ohms figures with me, but when we compare the power rating of N8 at 300 ohms, High Impedance mode delivers 50mW per channel to 3.5mm (tube and SS) and 200mW per channel to 4.4mm, that is 400% more power on paper, so the balanced headphone output from N8 probably will do a better job. But since we are dealing with K120, we definitely should keep it as-is. TBH, I am kind of happy that N8 can survive this extraordinary test. This is way beyond the idea of "difficult load" that we have in mind for N8, especially for 3.5mm single-ended output is concerned.

I need to add a disclaimer after I feel so excited with this impression:

High Impedance low sensitivity headphones are designed for desktop/professional usage, N8 is a portable audio device and is not designed for this purpose, Cayin cannot ensure or warrant similar usage and you use it at your won risk.



Now we are safe and we can continue to discuss the impression.

Andy, Glad to have your reply : )
when we met at Meze, we're both trying out the RAI IEM, and agreed it's pretty nice one and told a bit bad contact on my N5II 2.5 bal out, the bit tall and big guy
So K120 was in bag after experimenting those Cayin wonders. Oh Man, I love the sound pairing with iDAC-6 + HA-1A MKII, not with my test track, but feel the fullness out of it, feel more details on N8 + 300B, but somehow the bass got distorted, as said may be too powerful for the old cans
Here I got the Impression on N8 is comparable to desktop, pairing with N8 tube SE, it feel like 70% close to the desktop setup !! and really love Cayin ability to keep the signature across their build

And the page you posted is as impressive as the N8, havn't seen this measurements since the day reseaching K120, and correct, it's the one in report. it's so informative !!! but for the sensitivity, much less than it's ads leaflet claimed 112dB/mW vs measured 88.8dB/V .. no wonder on paper it should be similar to my E5000, but in fact it's way too hungry for power.
So on N8 when switch high-power mode and max vol, I hear the loudness a bit more than long term listen, sorry can't really tell the rough dB number on that .. but still the sound fullness is extraordinary
and just a fun test on the "unnamed" headphone amp in Audio-Technica booth, it used to feed the new ADX5000 .. and I pluged the K120 in, then need to keep turning the vol knob until the vol LED reach the very last one to have listening level .. may be all power goes to balanced jack

Hopefully not too off topic, in report the bass response is week, since ear cup is flat shallow gum edge, can't keep air tight around ears, so mine got a bit mod by putting a K240 optional velvet earpad on it and some inside tweak, let's have a look, feel more balanced sound, back to study the FR graph, so exciting for this grandpa cans !!

 

[Andykong]

I am sorry, but a balanced output will always be electrically and acoustically superior to a Single Ended one, not only does it remove crosstalk between channels, allowing for a better sound but it also (and this is especially important in a portable source) allows twice the power output initially provided through Single Ended for a given amplifier at the same voltage and impedance.

You can claim whatever you like, it doesn't change the laws of electronic physics or the laws of acoustics. The truth is the tube amp would have benefited from the balanced output much better than it would from its single ended counterpart and it makes no sense to privilege the single ended output on a high end portable product where the costumers will have the resources to invest in high end balanced compatible headphones.

If someone with the means have the choice between the N8 and the NW-WM1Z and the balanced output sounds better on the later, chances are that's what he'd pick, if just for the fact that he can drive higher impedance headphones on the later.

If you manage to make the N8 sound better over SE than the WM1Z over balanced, then you might have a chance, otherwise I don't think people will see the N8 as an upgrade.

This is not a rant, I just fail to understand the choice that came with privileging the Single Ended output over the Balanced one in a potable audio source that contains both.

I'll leave the audio performance out for the moment, I don't comment on the subjective part of Cayin product, I hope you'll be able to check out the N8 in the future and compare it to your reference player, or you can refer to the impression of other users or the reviews from various media after we launch the product. We can discuss the technical aspect of your questions. Your raised a very valid concern that I am sure a lot of DAP users are puzzled when they look the design philosophy of Cayin N8.

You said balanced design "also (and this is especially important in a portable source) allows twice the power output initially provided through Single Ended for a given amplifier at the same voltage and impedance". If you are comparing the single-end output of a balanced design DAP, then your observation probably is 100% valid because you are comparing a compromised single-ended implementation with a full-strength balanced design, be reminded under this circumstances, the single end output only involve 50% components (and resource) of the balanced output. However this doesn't necessarily generalized to all circuit design. Single end design can easily achieve the same level of power output and audio performance given the same resource.

If I put this in number, when we compare a $1000 balanced amplifier to a $1000 single-end amplifier, we call that a fair game. If you compare a $1000 balanced amplifier to a $500 single-end amplifier, that isn't a fair game. When you build a $1000 balanced amplifier, because of its fully differential design, you probably will involve more components by nature. When we build a single-end amplifier with the same budget, we'll use less components by design but we'll have the resource to use better components all the way through, Will balanced always outperform single-ended given these fair game condition? Maybe? Maybe not.

In addition to this fair game analogy, I would like to mention two amplification techniques that Cayin has used in portable DAP. The first one is Bridge-Tied Loads (BTL) Amplification, commonly known as Bridged-Mono by audiophiles. Our earliest DAP N6 use this amplification technology. If you look at the functional diagram of N6 (here). BTL is very similar to the differential amplification designs that are commonly used in balanced DAP. You can visualize BTL as haveing two identical amplifiers inside a portable device, one in +ve phase and the other in -ve phase, that's explained the L+, L- and R+, R- signal path on the functional diagram, and these will merge into L and R channel in the final output stage. BTL amplification offers very good channel separation with minimum crosstalk, doubled voltage swing at the same load, excellent control and current capability, and impressive linearity over the complete audio bandwidth. The only drawback of BTL is doubled component count that will cost more to build, drain battery faster, and disperse more heat when compare to standard single-ended design, but I guess Balanced designed DAP will face similar problems.

The second amplification technique is parallel amplification. For convenient sake, I would like to quote the articles from Analog Device as they have explained how parallel amplification can increase output drive and improves Signal-to-Noise performance, you can read these article here and here.

N8 deploys this technique by using two OPA1622 Op-Amp operating in parallel into a common load. OPA1622 is a dual Op-Amp that Cayin has used in several projects. With N5ii/N5iiS, we use one piece of OPA1622 for 3.5mm single-ended output, and two pieces of OPA1622 for 2.5mm balanced output. In N8, we used TWO pieced of OPA1622 for single-ended output and FOUR pieces of OPA1622 for balanced output. In other word, the single-ended circuit of N8 uses the same amount of amp components as the balanced circuit of other DAP, the different is in N8 we connect them in parallel instead of differential, the single ended output of N8 can indeed comparable to the balanced output of some DAPs.

I have provided the power rating of N8 single-ended output in previous post, I can quote it here again for your reference, you can compare it with the balanced output of your reference DAP if you think rated output is an important benchmark.

To be honest, I don't think anyone should worry about the power output, 400mW+400mW @32ohm is a lot of power, in regardless of single-ended or balanced.

For those who are interested in the concept of bridged and parallel amplification, Wiki has a very good introduction to this topic and you can read it here.

Having said that, balanced design has one distinctive parameter that will almost always outperform single-ended: Channel separation. You'll notice this advantage easily as they will be appeared as extraordinary instrument placement and well defined vocal and instrument separation during playback. On the other hand, channel separation is not always a trump card in high fidelity hobby. From what I observe, some audiophiles value focus over separation, especially to those who listen to a lot of vocal tracks. Focus happens to be one of the strength of single-ended design. So when you listen to tracks like A Taste of Honey or When I Dream, single-end amplifier probably will win more hearts.

 

[denis1976]

Desktop equivalent is only counting when the performances is up to par. There are several desktop setups, and some is pretty negligible. Most importantly, how will the N8 perform ? That is what bring the curiosity to me.

The one thing for sure is that my Dx200 can have 1.2W output and 2700mA on it amp module, still playing DSD512 from computer fed over USB or natively from MicroSD. The thing that not many desktop system can do, even HDV820 from Sennheiser, now, that is something worthy of desktop equivalent. Now, if anyone wonder, I only use headphones and no iems. The Dx200 playing DSD512 is only behind my LKS004

Both the Wm1Z and r2r7 are behind in DSD performances.

So, how is the N8 under this circumstances ? Very interesting, I will keep following and see.

To those of you, who called N8 desktop equivalent, do you mind telling me your setup ?

My desktop consists of Stax Sr-009/009S, KG T2, Pinkfaun dedicated built PC with Linear Power Supply, Furman References IT15, LKS004, AGD R2R7. All upgraded cables around.

Couples pictures to show it.

has in home audio , there are watts and WATTS , when i had the DX200 with the stock module that claimed 1.1 w, i had the 1Z at the same time, and , at the same volume level the sound of the 1z was much more fleshed and powerfull, the 1.1w of the dx where thin...

 

[Whitigir]

Having said that, balanced design has one distinctive parameter that will almost always outperform single-ended: Channel separation. You'll notice this advantage easily as they will be appeared as extraordinary instrument placement and well defined vocal and instrument separation during playback. On the other hand, channel separation is not always a trump card in high fidelity hobby. From what I observe, some audiophiles value focus over separation, especially to those who listen to a lot of vocal tracks. Focus happens to be one of the strength of single-ended design. So when you listen to tracks like A Taste of Honey or When I Dream, single-end amplifier probably will win more hears.

Yes sir! Thank you for this. Channel separation is improved even with independent power supplies is used as it minimizes crosstalk. Therefore, ofcourse, I am a fan of Balanced from theory, engineering, technical pedigree. I keep saying a pretty simple thing “we have 2 separated ears, so we hear more with 2 separated channels”

 

[Whitigir]

has in home audio , there are watts and WATTS , when i had the DX200 with the stock module that claimed 1.1 w, i had the 1Z at the same time, and , at the same volume level the sound of the 1z was much more fleshed and powerfull, the 1.1w of the dx where thin...

Only Amp8 has 1.2W of power, and it was released last month. When did you compare, and on what amp module ? Also Dx200 has 150 volume knot where 1Z is 120 only

Regardless, I am curious about whomever claim that N8 is the equivalent of Desktop, what desktop do they have

 

[denis1976]

I had it with the stock amp that claims 6 v that is more or less 1 /1,1 w, the volume was matched, i am not telling that the dx200 wont play louder, it plays in a more thin way, the 250mw of the 1Z at the same pressure level where much more true and the sound had more body more density, what i believe is that the N8 will be another TOTL dap with top sound , with density and body, thats what i had with the 1Z , and that what in more liquid way my sp1000cu gives me, and, thats what i love, not thin sound

 

[Whitigir]

I had it with the stock amp that claims 6 v that is more or less 1 /1,1 w, the volume was matched, i am not telling that the dx200 wont play louder, it plays in a more thin way, the 250mw of the 1Z at the same pressure level where much more true and the sound had more body more density, what i believe is that the N8 will be another TOTL dap with top sound , with density and body, thats what i had with the 1Z , and that what in more liquid way my sp1000cu gives me, and, thats what i love, not thin sound

Power delivery is not about voltage swing only, but also amp per hour. Only Amp8 can have 2700mAH. Now, I see why you were not satisfied with amp6. I was not satisfied with Amp4S, and agreed that 1Z sounded with more authorities before Amp8. Things changed with Amp8 though.

Let’s get back on topic of N8, I am still waiting to see whose claims and what their desktop systems of N8 equivalent setups are

 

[seanwee]

has in home audio , there are watts and WATTS , when i had the DX200 with the stock module that claimed 1.1 w, i had the 1Z at the same time, and , at the same volume level the sound of the 1z was much more fleshed and powerfull, the 1.1w of the dx where thin...

I had it with the stock amp that claims 6 v that is more or less 1 /1,1 w, the volume was matched, i am not telling that the dx200 wont play louder, it plays in a more thin way, the 250mw of the 1Z at the same pressure level where much more true and the sound had more body more density, what i believe is that the N8 will be another TOTL dap with top sound , with density and body, thats what i had with the 1Z , and that what in more liquid way my sp1000cu gives me, and, thats what i love, not thin sound

That would be the tonality of the devices. Output power has nothing to do with a more full bodied or powerful sound.

 

[x RELIC x]

has in home audio , there are watts and WATTS , when i had the DX200 with the stock module that claimed 1.1 w, i had the 1Z at the same time, and , at the same volume level the sound of the 1z was much more fleshed and powerfull, the 1.1w of the dx where thin...

That’s because unless using full volume there will never be full output of the available power. The headphone you used obviously didn’t max out the volume of the 1Z and therefore the differences you heard were down to tuning and implementation (and preferences).

 

[denis1976]

Not only, based in all i heard in my life, the 1Z is better "implemented" thats the diference that you pay and thats what you get in a real TOTL dap, that is what i hope the N8 will be