[aaf evo]

N7 just seems to be maturing so nicely with more use. Around 10 hours of listening now, maybe a smidge more. Absolutely loving the class A vocals on this one.

 

[Andykong]

Following the introductions and explanations here, I am thinking along the following lines.

Notwithstanding the - way too coarse and generalized! - saying of ”a DAC does not have a sound, it is the implementation (e.g. amp) and transducer (e.g. IEM) that determine the sound“, we have experienced that IC-DACs have some sort of sound of their own. We do distinguish AKM, ROHM, ESS, TI, and many others - some are ascribed a ”house sound“.

With the N7 now, it occurs to me that one of the principal elements that is determining the sound might be the Audio Bridge. I dare to go out on a limb and suppose that it is an integrated circuit (IC), manufactured by a third party. If I am not mistaken, nothing much has been said (yet?) about its specifics. Would Cayin say more about it?

Why do I ascribe a crucial role to the Audio Bridge? It does the all-encompassing conversion of PCM to DSD in the N7.

Why do I think there might be many ways / algorithms for such conversion? Just as an example, think of the many algorithms for sample rate conversion within the PCM domain.

Just some thoughts…

If I can speak quickly on behalf of Cayin, it's the programmable logic aboard N7's FPGA preceding the audio bridge that plays a big role in how the final 1-bit stream sounds. It's what generates the I2S (data, bit clock, master clock, word clock) into the audio bridge. How it handles that, now and in future upgrades, could play a big part in how N7 sounds.

But there is something inherent to all 1-bit converters, in the way they do their decode. Scarlet Book standards call for a 7th order noise-shaper. Executed in workable engineering, that's a low-pass filter in the analog domain. Musical frequencies pass through, what's above the Scarlet Book definition of 50Khz (or where ever a designer sets his low-pass filter) gets blocked.

If DSD DAC designers follow this formula, which is going to be really common owing to the physics of a 1-bit decode, then results from a DSD DAC should be more or less closer to the next one than further. Ie: the filtering is very simple. Compare that to a PCM digital filter in FIR – with lots of ringing, slow or fast roll-off slopes, Nyquist, corner frequency, sharpness of the knee etc etc. – that has a lot of variables, and that's why various DAC IC manufacturers have a sound.

Not because of the silicon, but because of the digital filters written aboard. Oh, they are rarely 1-bit designs, being 2-6 bit delta-sigma (or PWM in the case of ESS) designs. Having many modulators complicates things greatly – and errors during the dynamic element matching process abound in chip IC silicon.

Laying that basis, I'll try as simply as possible to answer @111MilesToGo's question:

1. The audio-bridge and 1-bit DAC are like the heart of N7. The heart beats and pumps blood involuntarily. In N7, these two items in the signal path convert 1-bit audio involuntarily.
2. It's in the FPGA logic, the brains of N7, that dictates how a DSD decode could sound since it can be taught new things with new programming, and certainly influence lots of how PCM is set up to be converted to DSD in the audio bridge.
3. DSD, owing to very simple filtering before becoming analog, can (will) sound more consistent than PCM can, because PCM's digital filters can get very, very complicated and that's where a lot of the IP in a good PCM DAC lies.
4. The digital decode is the start of the analog chain in N7, but there are many things that follow such as the discrete low-pass stage handling the small voltage signal influencing how N7 really sounds.

Below I'll leave you my snippet of why we think N7's discrete gain stage sounds so special ...

N7's driver section counts on all the benefits that come with a discrete bipolar design – low voltage noise, low open-loop gain and the resultantly lower negative feedback necessary, high slew rates and unity gain stability. This accurate linearity means that whatever entered N7's DAC as digital, comes out exactly the same in analog. There's a reason N7 portrays elements within the soundstage with such solidity, the aural images it generates so convincingly rendered – its small signal post-conversion is of the highest quality, and inherently stable without going into oscillation caused by too much gain product.

... and I'm very eager to read more of Andy's inside stories about Cayin's development – the next I believe exactly about the discrete small-signal stage – because it's been a fascinating journey with them.

Thank you @Z_Showmaster for your prompt explanation, this is very helpful.

I am surprised that the SRC is considered the more important step that shaped the sound of N7 DAP. In my book, SRC might affect the audio performance but has very little bearing on the sound signature. Yes, I distinctively differentiate between sound signature and audio performance being the subjective assessment and objective assessment respectively.

I honestly doubt if there is a way to access the relative implication of different blocks in the functional diagram. If I have to make an estimation, the three discrete implementations (DAC, HeadAmp, and LPF) and the power supply system are definitely the four cornerstones of both the sound signature and audio performance of N7, if I need to go beyond these, the FPGA, the fs oscillator, SRC chip, the chassis design, ... will also introduce different levels of contribution to the overall sound of the DAP.

@111MilesToGo sorry to tell you that we didn't plan to discuss the PCM to DSD transcoding and upsampling algorithm in any detail. We adopted a hardware solution in this case and we didn't know enough about their algorithm to start with.

 

[Andykong]

There are definitely many possible ways to re-sample PCM to DSD. Having a 1-bit DAC could be either good or bad. 1-bit output does tend to sound a bit soft any time I've tried it through dedicated 1-bit processors in various DACs. It's arguably slightly less natural (compared to live music) but can be more pleasant to listen to. I'm sure that will be very appealing in Asia.

Perfect timing to discuss this topic, at least briefly.

I believe we hear the same thing, we just use different words to describe our feeling, which is typical when we have different preferences. If fact I was one of the Pro-PCM guys back in 2000 when DVD-A was an alternative to SACD, I enjoy being able to hear the "resolution" clearly on 24/96 PCM tracks, and the dynamic range was jaw-dropping when called for. As time goes by, I started to appreciate the natural sound offered by SACD, and the smoothness that allows me to enjoy my favorite music hours over hours.

To summarize, I don't think there is a clear winner between PCM and DSD, or between 24Bit and 1Bit. It's about implementation, it's about what we can offer at a specific price range. When the market is large enough, there will be a market for more than one option. Cayin embraces both technologies, we are not going to say N7 is the only real deal and we will make nothing but 1-bit from now on. We merely think it's not right that 1-bit becomes a legacy technology and there isn't any viable option for Personal Audio users. If someone tested the N7 and decided that this is not their cup of tea, that's perfectly fine, and we think that is a better outcome than, at the end of the day, asking "what is 1-bit? Is that another R-2R DAP"?

 

[Z_Showmaster]

I don't think there is a clear winner between PCM and DSD, or between 24Bit and 1Bit. It's about implementation, it's about what we can offer at a specific price range. When the market is large enough, there will be a market for more than one option. Cayin embraces both technologies, we are not going to say N7 is the only real deal and we will make nothing but 1-bit from now on. We merely think it's not right that 1-bit becomes a legacy technology and there isn't any viable option for Personal Audio users.

An excellent conclusion!

 

[MarkParity]

I am surprised that the SRC is considered the more important step that shaped the sound of N7 DAP. In my book, SRC might affect the audio performance but has very little bearing on the sound signature. Yes, I distinctively differentiate between sound signature and audio performance being the subjective assessment and objective assessment respectively.

You can't really blame us, we've all been brainwashed into believing the latest flagship DAC chip is much better than the last flagship DAC chip.

As the SRC is part of the DAC process in N7 its kind of understandable that people would put its importance above all the analogue stuff however good it is.

Now we are being told that the digital stuff isn't that important, give us time, we will come around.

 

[Andykong]

So you are planning on keeping N7 + FIR In the end?

There is no such thing as "... In the end"

So hs is planning on keeping N7 + FIR for today?

 

[Z_Showmaster]

1-bit becomes a legacy technology

An excellent conclusion!

Actually I’m going to raise a slight “issue” with you Andy, just because some of the world’s most current state-of-the-art DACs work on a 1-bit basis 1-bit is alive and kicking, especially on the recording ADC side, where music is made in DSD in the studio. Arguably that’s even more important than in playback. I think of Channel Classics and Octave Records.

But where the real triumph of N7 lies to me, isn’t the 1-bit aspect. That may be a misnomer, a red herring. The key to me is that N7 is discrete. Proprietary. Think about the leg up advantage that means on a R&D level. While other designers are working to respond to the latest chip IC to market, Cayin are actually taking the initiative to go their own way entirely, with something completely unique.

 

[Andykong]

Is this an R2R? I read it was but it doesn’t look like it is? I’m a bit confused if anyone can help I’d be grateful. Thanks guys

This is NOT an R-2R DAP, The 1-bit DSD DAC is a totally different digital decoding technology when compare to R-2R. This is like comparing Tiramisu with New York Cheesecake, while both recipes involve cheese, egg, and sugar, the process and the outcome are very different. Likewise, while you can find resistor network and FPGA in both R-2R DAP and 1-bit DAP, they "cook" their music differently, and deliver music and emotion differently. However, if you are only a consumer, you probably won't care about the recipe, it's the deliverables that matter, right?

 

[Andykong]

@Andykong The C9 would be a good companion for the N7 as a line-out and pre-amp?

Yes, that's the dotted line in our product roadmap. N6ii+A02 used to take up that position, but the AKM fire had punched a little hole in our roadmap, hopefully, N7 will help us to recover from that, finally.

 

[Andykong]

Hello Andy.
what you describe with the HA300 is very depended on the input sensitivity of the amp itself - they are all have different specs, some can handle even 10V input and some will go into distortions with 10V

The problem only exists with Susvara and HA-300, if this is a general input sensitivity problem, that would be easier to spot because the users will run into similar problems with other headphones as well.

 

[nioh]

Ah ok, my mistake...

Do you have a link ?

I don’t think there’s any link up yet. Check out the CanJam impressions thread and you’ll find some first impressions about the Radon 6.

 

[Andykong]

What’s the price in the US? Is there a show special?




Great write up Andy and thanks. I had the TOTL PLAYBACK DESIGN DAC as well as well as Ed’s DV2. I loved both, but have to say that the PD was a killer and one it use along side the MSB DAC. I went with the Brinkman Nyquist DAC for the cost (lists for 19k I think) as I got my dealers demo. I fell for the 8ii when EEarphones a few weeks ago. I’m strongly considering the N7 right now with my Odins. My current system is Vandersteen Quatro speakers with matching VANDERSTEEN mono blocks and soon VANDERSTEEN preamp when he comes to market with it. My server/streamer is the Laufer Technichs Music Player with the most lup to date installed. I own many terrabytes. Of high rez music and that include a lot of DSD that’s from home recording of reel to reel as well as commercial DSD.

It’s a great system and highly musical etc. I own an old pair of Noble IEM,s and Empire Ear Odins. I love the Odins as they are semi close to 2 channel sound, but very fun still. Dean hits it out of the park for my money with his various designs.

Based on Alex’s thoughts as well as reading the design behind this, it’s intriguing to say the least.

The SRP of Cayin N7 is $1999,

Wow, I didn't expect this. I do my homework on 1-bit DAC products and shortlisted one SACD player/1-bit DAC at $10K, $20K, and $30K price range respectively. I heard all three in shows or shop demos, but I never own them, I didn't expect to run into someone who actually owned both in N7 thread. Glad I have done my homework properly and didn't make things up.

I really want to hear from you that if N7 offers a genuine 1-bit DAC experience, you probably are the only users that can answer this question with certainty. However, please take your time to compare N8ii and N7 before you plunge in. Keep us posted when you make your final decision on your next DAP.

 

[Andykong]

N7 just seems to be maturing so nicely with more use. Around 10 hours of listening now, maybe a smidge more. Absolutely loving the class A vocals on this one.

Discrete components take longer to settle down when compare to Op-Amp or highly integrated IC in general. Although the N7 has more discrete components than other DAPs, the burn-in duration probably remains the same when compared to, for example, N8ii. However, the degree or the magnitude of changes will be more dramatic.

 

[Zeppo19]

For IEM I dont think i need the C9 but I cant wait to try it with the C9 tonight... Havent had much time but it do sound wonderful

It does get rather toasty on Class A

 

[Andykong]

Actually I’m going to raise a slight “issue” with you Andy, just because some of the world’s most current state-of-the-art DACs work on a 1-bit basis 1-bit is alive and kicking, especially on the recording ADC side, where music is made in DSD in the studio. Arguably that’s even more important than in playback. I think of Channel Classics and Octave Records.

But where the real triumph of N7 lies to me, isn’t the 1-bit aspect. That may be a misnomer, a red herring. The key to me is that N7 is discrete. Proprietary. Think about the leg up advantage that means on a R&D level. While other designers are working to respond to the latest chip IC to market, Cayin are actually taking the initiative to go their own way entirely, with something completely unique.

I have a couple of friends in the recording/mastering business and they produce CD and SACD for the audiophile market, but I don't know their workflow in detail, so I am not sure if I should quote them to emphasize how important the DSD format is and will be. However, I do run into audiophiles who use the DSD format regularly in their hobby:

• Some of my friends are into singing and performing art as a hobby, they need to record their rehearsals and events in Hi-Res since these are used for archive purposes without a mastering option, portable recorders such as Sony PCM-D100 become handy, and after numerous attempts, they almost enormously prefer DSD2.8 although the recorder is also capable of LPCM recording up to 192kHz/24 bit.
• An audiophile friend uses KORG MR-2000S as 1-bit ADC to achieve his LP collection to his music library. Theoretically, others can do this with their Reel-to-reel collection too. I was told that KORG DS-DAC-10R is a portable Phono Amp + ADC that can serve a similar purpose at a lower cost.

I have to finish the DIscrete HeadAmp and Discrete LPF writing this week, maybe I'll shed more light to the discussion after I finish these two topics.