[111MilesToGo]

I’m still enjoying E02, but it’s the skipping at the start of songs that I’m finding difficult to deal with.

I have had a look at the 2L test bench and do not know how to get tracks onto my computer.

However, I have some music on an SD card (in 44.1kHz from my iTunes) and listened local via the cayin music app. The skipping problem happens here also. I have a few tracks I’ve just tested it with on this SD card and the tracks have definitive parts at the very start of the song that I can definitely tell that the first second or so doesn’t play.

Even though these tracks are at 44.1kHz a similar thing happens to what I mentioned before. If you just click on a song to play, you can get skipping. But if the song is played in a succession of other songs in the playlist then it doesn’t skip. As before though this skipping doesn’t seem to happen every single time. It is perhaps 60% of the time.

So this skipping issue happens on Tidal streaming, on Tidal offline and from an SD card.

@Andykong:
I would like to ask about the status of the "skipping issue" mentioned a lot here.

First, has it been fixed with the v2.2 firmware? If yes, and if it does work, then please disregard everything else in this post of mine.

Second, I would like to report what I see with firmware 1.22 EN. I did not install any v2.x firmware yet, since I read about its bugs. I am using the T01 module, and I am using three players, Cayin and HiBy Music Apps, Qobuz. I found a track (16/44.1, standard PCM/FLAC) where a piano chord is being struck right at the track's beginning. The track is sitting on my SD card in the N6ii (actually twice, transfered from my PC for use by Cayin/HiBy, and imported within Qobuz).

The behavior of all three players is identical or, to say the least, very similar - they all exhibit the obnoxious skipping:

• When this track is being started autoatically in a normal gapless replay sequence from the previous track, all is fine; the chord is intact.
• When I start replay with this track itself, i.e. when I hit "Play" on it from a paused or stopped state, the initial cord gets truncated. Something like half a second to one or two seconds of the music gets discarded.
• I am experiencing issues with all three apps to move the time slider back to 0:00 on any track, it just happens to go to something like 0:02.

I do also have the Qobuz app on my iPhone under iOS. No problem whatsoever!

I admit that I did not research into this faulty behavior as much as some of my companions did previously. I just wanted to mention three things, (1) my use of the T01 module, and (2) all three apps, and (3) Qobuz app behaving properly on iOS. And I should say that I can't remember such faulty behavior with firmware versions around end of 2019; but I am not sure whether firmwares back then worked properly or whether I didn't observe the skipping faults.

Thanks a lot in advance for feedback on the "skipping" status. Again, please forgive me if it has been fixed, the firmware v2.2 announcement doesn't mention it specifically.

What you have put in your three bullet points is exactly what I have been describing (or trying to).

I updated this morning to v2.2en. The first track I went to after the update was ‘Here’s The Tender Coming‘ by The UnThanks. I use this track to test female vocals. It is also good for this purpose we are discussing though as the singing starts immediately so you can definitely tell what has been skipped. The title of the song also happens to be the first line sung. After the upgrade I pressed play on this and it went; ‘....he tender coming’, completely skipping the ‘Here’s’ and the first part of ‘the’. This was streaming straight from Tidal. I did try a few other track I use for this issue, just hitting play that is, and so far they seem fine. I’m worried that it still happened after the update with the first song I played though.

I am going to test offline download and songs on my SD card next.

Update on skipping

I’ve just tested offline Tidal downloads. There are some tracks I use because the singing begins immediately, thus it is easy to tell if there is an issue. These are:

‘Best of You’ by Foo Fighters
‘Help!’ By The Beatles
‘Suppers Ready’ by Genesis
‘Here’s The Tender Coming’ by The Unthanks
‘Carry on Wayward Son’ by Kansas

Every one of these skipped when I pressed on them to play.

I’ve just tested the SD card via Cayin music app and this seems to be ok, although I cannot say 100% yet as I want to load up some of the above songs to check.

Update on skipping: My test track for this issue is J.S. Bach‘s Italian Concerto, 1st movement, performed by the Jacques Loussier Trio on their “Play Bach aux Champs-Elysées“, CD 1, track 2.

Let me repeat myself: Listening to the T01 module via headphones, I observe the skipping issue with all three player apps, Cayin, HiBy, Qobuz. My music is stored on a SanDisk Extreme Pro Micro SD card with 1 TB capacity and 170 MBytes/s reading capability; only 6 GB out of the 1000 GB used up.

There is another test that I would like to do, but haven‘t found the required peace yet: What would happen if I / we were to take the digital output from our N6ii into another outboard DAC? Could be my Chord Hugo 2, of which I am sure it plays even the first fraction of a second when a digital signal comes in. We could utilize the USB-C output from the N6ii, or the S/PDIF embedded in the USB-C, ohe I2S embedded in USB-C.

This test should be very interesting, since I suppose it will eliminate the DAC/AMP module from the game. I suppose it will leave the player apps and a portion of the N6ii firmware in the faulty game. Again, please forgive me if that test has been done already; pls let us all know again.

Actually, this proposal came to my mind when I reflected on my past journey:

1. I started out with an AudioQuest DragonFly Red USB-DAC. Simple and effective device, which I use still today for quick and dirty tests.
2. Next thing was an Oppo HA2-SE USB-DAC. This one got returned to the dealer quite quickly, since - guess what! - it discarded a few seconds of music every time when I hit Play from stopped or paused status on the associated computer. I had been in contact even with Oppo California, but to no avail at all. So I bid farewell to it.
3. Thereafter, I auditioned other USB-DACS, a.o. a Chord Mojo (not my sound). Anyway, I ultimately ended up with purchasing a Chord Hugo 2.
4. The N6ii came last as a handy device, and it‘s an outstanding DAC.

Thus, I am reminded of step 2 of my journey by the current “skipping issue“ of the N6ii. Maybe it is interesting that the Oppo was just a USB-DAC, no operating system, no player apps.

Another test which could be done is putting the music files into the internal storage of the N6ii instead of an SD card as in my case. But I seem to remember that this has already been done by @Deferenz? Nevertheless, I figure an SD card at 170 MBytes/s reading should be fast enough to fill a play buffer almost instantly.

Finally, I should like to express my sincere hope that Cayin‘s developers can turn to the skipping issue now, since the bugfixing for firmware 2.2 is off their chests. Dear @Andykong, please let us know what‘s going on; if not now, then be after the 1st week of October break.

I updated to v2.2EN today and I can also confirm that playing in Tidal, I get the infamous skip.

• With master files in Tidal, skip happens when you switch tracks or jump to a different time
• Note the rate and time stamp below (88.2k@0.02 vs 352.8k@0.04). The unfolding is happening mid-song. In fact, it's not the absolute time. It's when the delayed unfold happens, you get a second of silence.
• This was confirmed with my A01/T01/E01/E02
• I haven't been able to replicate it in Cayin player
• Tidal version is 2.30.2.1009.2

I am happy to report that filter resetting issue is resolved. The E02 does seem to have a noticeable click when the amp goes into mute. But I didn't specifically note this before the update so I cannot say if it has gone worse or not. Maybe there was an amp bias change?

I'm currently using E01. I don't have the clicking anymore, but yeah MQA tracks skips in the beginning of the track.

Sorry to hear that. I don’t have the same issues with Tidal on E02. Maybe there‘s some sort of buffering problem related to this. I hope Cayin can fix this with future FW updates.

Update on the infamous ”skipping issue“:

I installed the UAPP app as another test. While installing, it discovered my T01 module; and I left every setting on default.

Tried my ”skipping test track“ (CD 1 track 2 of Jacques Loussier Trio ”Play Bach aux Champs Élysées“, as 16/44.1 CD rip FLAC on my SanDisk Extreme Pro Micro SD 1 TB with exFAT formatting), listening to the T01 module via IEM; firmware 1.22EN. I simply hit ”Play“ on it from the list of tracks in this album just after launching UAPP. And boom - there is the obnoxious skipping, too!

”Skipping“ means the first piano chord which is being struck right after time mark 0:00 gets discarded: Sound is being produced instantaneously when hitting Play, but it jumps about half a second into the track. So this first piano chord is discarded, it is not muted or being replaced with silence. I would like to remark that my case of skipping is a very simple one, just starting a track from stopped state. Nothing complicated like changing sample rate from one track to the next while doing gapless playback, as others had reported on. And no MQA at all, firmware 1.22EN.

I had hoped an independent player with - hopefully - its own hardware driver might not exhibit skipping. But the skipping remains.

EDIT: As of now, I observe the skipping with all apps I have: Cayin and HiBy music apps as well as UAPP, playing FLAC files stored on the SD card; and the Qobuz app, playing imported albums from the SD card. I don‘t have Tidal. All playing to T01 with IEMs. NOT tested as of now: Qobuz streaming from the web; and - maybe an important test - looking at the N6ii digital outputs feeding an outboard DAC.

I figured UAPP to be a ”minimally invasive“ test for skipping. I repeat my question: Can I install an older firmware over a newer one without any danger? That would be quite invasive; the rationale is that reports on skipping showed up only recently, in particular after release of the E02, but skipping is not limited to the E02. A firmware regression introduced while taking account of the E02 is a hypothesis to be checked into by our friendly Cayin engineers.

Another hypothesis of mine: @Andykong had provided advice to format the modern fast SD cards as FAT32 instead of exFAT, since buffering problems had allegedly been seen as those cards being too fast. My SD is 170 MB/s read speed, and it is exFAT. I will re-format it as one of my next steps, but losing everything is a bit of a pain... Any comments on this card speed thing?

So sad!

Next update on the ”skipping issue“:

A positive one now! I ran the embedded S/PDIF digital output from the N6ii USB-C into my Chord Hugo 2 DAC using the special Cayin cable, and listened to the Hugo 2 headphone out. Same test material as in my previous post.

NO skipping observed! Using all four player apps on the N6ii, same firmware 1.22EN, same T01 (should be irrelevant now, I think). None of the skipping which discards the first piano chord when listening through the T01; just a minuscule delay between hitting Play and sound coming out, which may be due to the digital chain involved here.

Several more tests can be envisaged: (1) Use the USB-C digital stream to feed the USB input of the Hugo 2, but I don‘t have the appropriate C to Micro-B cable. (2) Use the N6ii as a USB-DAC, being fed from my laptop via USB. (3) Use a FAT32 formatted SD card instead of the current exFAT one.

So this should help our friendly Cayin engineers and @Andykong to narrow down on the skipping issue. I know the Chinese are celebrating Golden Week from Oct 1 on.

Finally, a wild speculation which might be inappropriate: I sincerely hope Cayin will be able to fix the issue via firmware. In other words, I hope our Cayin N6ii modules are not trash - sorry for these words.

You skipping track works fine here, I've tested it using the N6ii as a USB DAC and using the Qobuz app. I noticed this album is gapless so I wonder if that was causing an issue, but as my N6ii works fine probably not.

I've got the latest F/W and A01 module.

Thanks for coming in and checking. Lucky you, or better unlucky me, unlucky @Deferenz and others. I hope for some more companions checking this issue.

Note to myself: I yet have to test it with the other module I have (A01), and I also didn‘t test it yet with the N6ii being used as a USB-DAC. And I yet have to re-format my SD card as FAT32. And I would like to check for the skipping when the audio files reside in the internal storage instead of on the SD card. And and and ... Finally, I don‘t dare to update from F/W 1.22EN to the latest yet.

Update on the ”skipping issue“:

I think I have found a little handle on the issue described in those previous posts (quotes not necessarily exhaustive). Just a little handle, not a full remedy yet. I re-formatted my SanDisk Extreme Pro Micro SD Card with 1TB of Storage and a specified reading speed of 170 MB/s to FAT32 instead of exFAT, as was suggested here:

Your 400GB Ultra should work, but if you encountered any problem such as skip tracks, you might need to format it into FAT32. We have received several reports saying that those faster card (160MB/s or above) in exFAT playing back Hi-Res file might causing problem occasionally, we suspect this is related to buffering speed of our DAP but we can't replicate the problem repeatedly.

With the FAT32 SD card and my setup as before (F/W 1.22EN, T01 output to IEM), the skipping at the start of my test track is GREATLY reduced. It is not perfect yet, maybe a tiny fraction of a second still is being discarded. But at least it is much more listenable now. When the card was on exFAT, the skipping almost caused me to bang my head against the wall, or bang the N6ii...

So I might try the UAPP player now and check whether it allows for any tweaks to help in this direction. Maybe the word buffering provides a direction.

Many things still not understood. Most of all, what is the root cause for this skipping? Several more, e.g.: Why does the digital S/PDIF out not skip at all when reading from the same SD card, not even from exFAT? Could I find a ”better“ SD card, e.g. slower and cheaper?

 

[DaYooper]

at the start of my test track

just one track?
Here's how I use it. 1TB sandisk card with 21274 tracks, all ripped from my own CDs. Always random all tracks. Never noticed any skipping or lost moments on any track.

 

[111MilesToGo]

just one track?
Here's how I use it. 1TB sandisk card with 21274 tracks, all ripped from my own CDs. Always random all tracks. Never had any skipping or lost moments on any track.

Oh no, several. Cf. one of the posts by @Deferenz, naming some tracks.

The point is: That type of what we called ”skipping“ discards the first few moments of a track when one hits Play on it from stopped state. So you need a track where audio starts right at or very slightly after time 0:00, and the music needs to be easily recognizable - a vocal line, a piano chord.

Or think of Beethoven Symphony No. 5, 1st movement - you know, ”da-da-da-doooo da-da-da-doooo“. If there were a track with the first ”da“ occurring right at 0:00 (e.g. a gapless live recording), it would go like ”da-doooo da-da-da-doooo“ from my exFAT SD card - outch, and like ”a-da-da-doooo da-da-da-doooo“ from my FAT32 SD card now.

BTW, what SanDisk model do you have?

EDIT: Beethoven‘s 5th should better be transcribed as ”ta-ta-ta-toooo ...“ to show the attack.

 

[DaYooper]

SanDisk 1TB Extreme microSDXC UHS-I Memory Card with Adapter - C10, U3, V30, 4K, A2, Micro SD - SDSQXA1-1T00-GN6MA

 

[111MilesToGo]

SanDisk 1TB Extreme microSDXC UHS-I Memory Card with Adapter - C10, U3, V30, 4K, A2, Micro SD - SDSQXA1-1T00-GN6MA

Mine is the Extreme Pro 1TB. Have an Extreme 128GB, too. Read speeds (cf. Andykongs‘s note) for both are high, 170 and 160 MB/s, resp. Thnx!

 

[DaYooper]

Here's how I use it. 1TB sandisk card with 21274 tracks, all ripped from my own CDs. Always random all tracks. Never noticed any skipping or lost moments on any track.

Let me just add, using Cayin music player.. no EQ no add on B.S. music player apps or enhancements. latest firmware, E01 for now.

 

[Andykong]

Sorry, I didn't aware your problem is related to Tidal only. When you said (HERE) "the skipping occurs when the playlist switches from 352.8KHz and 384kHz tracks to 44.1kHz tracks, but it doesn’t happen when I switch from 44.1khz to 352.8kHz or 384kHz. " I assume that was local music files. So the skipping happens when you switch from 8x MQA to non-MQA on Tidal, but it won't happen when you switch from non-MQA to 8X MQA?

We have to narrow down whether this is a Tidal app problem or MQA decoding problem. can you download several MQA files and standard CD files from 2L test bench and try to stimulate your playlist pattern with local music files. If the problem remain unchanged, then this is probably related to MQA response time. If the problem didn't recur on local music, then the problem maybe related to Tidal App.

 

[Andykong]

Sorry, I didn't aware your problem is related to Tidal only. When you said (HERE) "the skipping occurs when the playlist switches from 352.8KHz and 384kHz tracks to 44.1kHz tracks, but it doesn’t happen when I switch from 44.1khz to 352.8kHz or 384kHz. " I assume that was local music files. So the skipping happens when you switch from 8x MQA to non-MQA on Tidal, but it won't happen when you switch from non-MQA to 8X MQA?

We have to narrow down whether this is a Tidal app problem or MQA decoding problem. can you download several MQA files and standard CD files from 2L test bench and try to stimulate your playlist pattern with local music files. If the problem remain unchanged, then this is probably related to MQA response time. If the problem didn't recur on local music, then the problem maybe related to Tidal App.

I have had a look at the 2L test bench and do not know how to get tracks onto my computer.

However, I have some music on an SD card (in 44.1kHz from my iTunes) and listened local via the cayin music app. The skipping problem happens here also. I have a few tracks I’ve just tested it with on this SD card and the tracks have definitive parts at the very start of the song that I can definitely tell that the first second or so doesn’t play.

Even though these tracks are at 44.1kHz a similar thing happens to what I mentioned before. If you just click on a song to play, you can get skipping. But if the song is played in a succession of other songs in the playlist then it doesn’t skip. As before though this skipping doesn’t seem to happen every single time. It is perhaps 60% of the time.

So this skipping issue happens on Tidal streaming, on Tidal offline and from an SD card.

Oh no, several. Cf. one of the posts by @Deferenz, naming some tracks.

The point is: That type of what we called ”skipping“ discards the first few moments of a track when one hits Play on it from stopped state. So you need a track where audio starts right at or very slightly after time 0:00, and the music needs to be easily recognizable - a vocal line, a piano chord.

Or think of Beethoven Symphony No. 5, 1st movement - you know, ”da-da-da-doooo da-da-da-doooo“. If there were a track with the first ”da“ occurring right at 0:00 (e.g. a gapless live recording), it would go like ”da-doooo da-da-da-doooo“ from my exFAT SD card - outch, and like ”a-da-da-doooo da-da-da-doooo“ from my FAT32 SD card now.

BTW, what SanDisk model do you have?

EDIT: Beethoven‘s 5th should better be transcribed as ”ta-ta-ta-toooo ...“ to show the attack.

Sorry for the late response. We are in the middle of nation-wide 8 day holidays, factory and office will resume business on 9th October 2020. There wasn't a lot of time for me to put things together after we released the v2.2 firmware and before everybody started to pack up.

I'll pick up the issue from where my last comment. The root course of the skipping issue is the mute control in the playback circuit. Most modern DAC chipset (if not all) will produce a "pop" sound when
(1) startup from idle
(2) change the sampling frequency.

The pop sound is very disturbing and we have a way to get rid of it. For examples , Android device convert all audio signal to a fixed sample rate (48kHz in the past, 192kHz recently), this is where the famous SRC comes from. We know this won't work for our products, Cayin do that by inserting a mute control (a relay) BEFORE the phone and line output. Take a look at the functional diagram of A01 Audio Motherboard of N6ii product page in Cayin website and you'll notice the mute control:

If you take a look at the functional diagram of N6, you'll notice the mute control was in place since our first DAP. We found this an effective solution and is very familiar with the practise since we use the mute control in each and every Cayin DAP. The pop noise varied from different DAP chipset, it can be quick and loud, or mild but extended, so adjusting the mute control become an important part of DAP circuit design.

The problem is, if the mute timing is too short, part of the pop noise will flood into the playback, and the user is using sensitive earphones, even the decay of pop noise can be very disturbing. On the other hand, if the mute timing is too short, it will eat into the playback and skipped fraction of a second playback. The final adjustment is the result of lengthy trail and error but when the pop noise is getting too close or overlapped with playback, we have to make a choice between listening to pop noise every time, or skipping fraction of a second which only affect certain song that has output at the first second.

The skipping problem is not firmware related. If the Audio Motherboard has skipping problem, I have confirmed with our Engineers that we have not adjust mute timing on all four Audio Motherboards so far, so you find skipping problem with a certain Audio Motherboard, then it should appear when the Audio Motherboard is launched. You probably won't notice it previously but when someone mentioned it, you start to pay attention and catched the problem.

Turn on gapless will help, it will reduce pop noise or skipping that happens in between songs, but this won't resolve the pop noise or skipping when the DAC start from idle (i.e., when you hit play button and start a playback session) .

Using N6ii as digital transport and connect to an external DAC through USB, Coaxial or I2S will solve the skipping problem because you are not using the DAC chipset in N6ii at all, so there won't be any pop noise, and therefore no mute control is needed.

CAN WE SOLVE THE SKIPPING PROBLEM on E02?

Sadly, we can't.

Theoretically, we can continue trial and error to optimise the mute timing, hoping to achieve a perfect balanced to mask off the pop noise without skipping. On the other hand, the DAC chipset in E02 is ES9038Pro, it shared a lot of control and manipulation with ES9018K2M which we used in N5ii and N5iiS, so we are family with the control and manipulation of the DAC chipset. I have consult the Engineer about this in particular and he confirmed that shorten the mute timing of E02 will definitely expose the pop noise. When skipping only affect a small portion of music file, pop noise will always take place.

Sorry for unable to bring you good news.

 

[DaYooper]

Sounds like a perfect solution to me: live with it!

 

[111MilesToGo]

Thank you so much for your deep diving, @Andykong. With respect to what I called skipping / discarding a tiny bit past time 0:00, I had thought it was some muting or sort of fade-in. I respect your big efforts with every motherboard. Let me state clearly that I would absolutely hate a pop or click noise, and that I am more willing to live with a little leftover from the mute. For T01, the skipping = mute spillover got a bit better with FAT32 SD instead of exFAT. For now, i.e. during your Golden Week, I will relax.

Enjoy your holiday, and thanks again for now!

 

[111MilesToGo]

Sounds like a perfect solution to me: live with it!

Yes, I stated the same. Muting a pop/click is ESSENTIAL for each and every replay action. On the other hand, what I called skipping / discarding is observable only with the very small number of tracks where audio starts at or very close to time 0:00 as per discretion of the mastering engineer.

 

[Andykong]

So sad to read that it might be the last motherboard we’ll have, in one way i totally understand it (though cirrus logic dacs hasn’t been explored... JUST SAYING... CL01 could be a good option...). I haven’t tried e02, but I’m more than happy with my 3 motherboards, maybe ill add it later on to my collection, a02 sounds amazing but i just sold all my desktop setup, i do congratulate the cayin team for the bold move.

Tubes could be added to the motherboard collection as well... or a mini r2r project? =P just saying

shame that it's rhe last motherboard, could've been cool if there was another one with extremely ample power, maybe something to rival the new dx220max and R8. i wouldn't mind having a motherboard that's a little longer than the others for some extra power

The Audio Motherboard is not only about using different DAC chipset, we want to develop a total solution that is integrate the strength of the DAC chipset with a specially designed analogue system, and in the many cases, the analogue implementations are more interesting then the digital implementation.

While we describe the N6ii as unlimited possibilities, we still have to bounded by the law of physics, the dimension of the Audio Motherboard and the power supply in the main N6ii player are constraints that we have to live with, and within these constraints, A01, T01 and E02 are very powerful already.

Well, we don't have any Audio Motherboard in our new product plan right now. Maybe we'll identify a new Audi Motherboard project later, but before that, A02 is our last N6ii Audio Motherboard.

 

[Deferenz]

?!?

 

[111MilesToGo]

Sounds like a perfect solution to me: live with it!

Most important: Living with it is easy when the root cause is explained and we are reassured about the engineers‘ scrutiny in designing / optimizing. Thnx @Andykong.

 

[quisxx]

Looking to buy an E02 if anyone is trying to get rid of one.