[Andykong]

You do realize that there's a slight bug in the firmware where changing the EQ or digital filters a few times while music is playing makes the EQ quit responding or the digital filters not change? I usually pause the track playing, change the filter, then restart the track to see differences. Even then, it'll occasionally not update (and seemingly revert to SHARP for the filters or no EQ if the EQ is affected). You'll have to reboot the device, change your settings, and then restart your track.

I don't consider it a priority bug, as once you figure out your settings, you won't be changing these items very often. So for me, it was the first day or so that I was annoyed, but once I settled on Super Slow/Short Delay Slow and my EQ bump of +2/31Hz, +1/63Hz, +1/8KHz, and +2/16KHz, the bug was forgotten as I haven't had to touch my settings.

I have this bug on my list, but I can't replicate it with confident, and neither our software team can achieve that, so we still couldn't isolate the potential root cause of the problem. This will be an outstanding item that we'll pursue again once we roll our the more important updates, so please be patient and stay tune with us.

 

[Andykong]

@Andykong thank you for your clarifications and answers! I know the specs say iOS is not supported, but anyway: Can the N3 works as an external dac/amp for my iPhone (using the CCK). Im interested in using my iphone as a music source and take adventage of N3 hardware. May another user has already tested this?

Sorry, I don't have CCK with me, so I can't test that configuration.

 

[actorlife]

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/c...oax-out-for-150.833932/page-104#post-13449958

Dang a week later no news yet.

 

[Andykong]

I have more or less covered the outstanding questions from page 100 onward. I am still adjusting myself with the new HeadFi site, I miss the "search in thread" function desperately as I find it very difficult to keep track of related questions/bugs together when I response to them. I hope I didn't miss anything significant. Please feel free to raise your question(s) again if I have accidentally missed you post.

I'll try to check out page 90-page 99 later this week, Hopefully I'll cover all outstanding issues since

Dang a week later no news yet.

Sorry, did I promised a date specifically and I failed to compile? Maybe I should stop providing any head-up information and let everyone wait for the formal announcement.

 

[actorlife]

Sorry, did I promised a date specifically and I failed to compile? Maybe I should stop providing any head-up information and let everyone wait for the formal announcement.

Haha Well I not the only one asking. It was more of a reminder message since WE know you got alot on the table.

 

[rathgar]

Sorry double post

 

[rathgar]

Regarding the digital output of N3, I shall clarify our thinking and implementation, and we can work out a solution that fit the customer need if needed.

1. The volume control, EQ, and Gain Control of N3 are all happening at digital domain, so having volume control, EQ and Gain control in digital output does not require processing the audio signal from D to A, and then A to D again.
2. N3 is operated under non-oversampling (NOS) DAC concept, the digital output are, by nature, NOS output.
3. Is NOS output equivalent to bit-perfect digital output? Not exactly if you must pursue the ultimate digital reference. However, N3 was never aim as a "reference" class product given the price and market segment we have targeted.
4. Cayin always workout a detail product positioning and design compromises plan during the early stage of each product, and we don't copycat the plan from previous product conveniently, Cayin believes that with the exception of flagship product, all product are full of compromises, maintaining high C/P and correct market positioning is therefore the key to successful products.
5. N3, as our entry level products, aims at a relatively mass market when compare to our other DAP. We believe N3 has strive a very good balance between sound quality vs feature/versatile. On the issue of digital output, we stay at NOS digital output as it allows us to provide a high quality digital audio output with the added benefit of volume control, EQ and gain control. The different between the current setting and a bit-perfect setting is minimal, and probably inaudible unless you are using a very high quality (and most likely very expensive) outboard DAC product.
   
6. As a matter of fact, we do have customers feedback on how they appreciate the added features in the digital output, especially when EQ is still functional at digital output.
7. We can bypass the Volume control and Gain Control on digital output if that's the preference of our customers. The output will remain at "native" volume, and this can be implemented through a firmware modification.
8. The EQ feature has an EQ off option already and that will bypass the EQ processing completely, so we don't need to change that.

Now I want to hear your opinion on this take. This is something that we can implement easily so we tend to listening to our customers. After-all, we build products to satisfy our customers' need.

Thank you for the clarification on it's output as a transport. I personally would rather see the volume and gain bypassed when in digital out. Right now when i play a FLAC volume and gain work, but when playing a DSD file volume and gain are bypassed. I can leave the eq on or off.

 

[docholliday]

I have this bug on my list, but I can't replicate it with confident, and neither our software team can achieve that, so we still couldn't isolate the potential root cause of the problem. This will be an outstanding item that we'll pursue again once we roll our the more important updates, so please be patient and stay tune with us.

I agree that it's hard to reproduce! It seems to happen more if I change the EQ or digital filter while a file is playing. If I pause the track first, it doesn't seem to do it except occasionally. It also seems to happen more the higher the resolution of the file playing.

It doesn't bother me at all now that I've got the EQ and filters figured out; I don't change them except occasionally and even then it's direct to the other setting.

However, I have noticed an occasional weirdness in some tracks with the highs, no matter what digital filter is enabled. It started with me noticing that enabling the EQ causes the mids to recess. I added a single +2 to 16K and noticed it. Everything else was flat on the EQ settings, yet the mids seemed to recess a hair. I then noticed the highs lost body when the EQ was enabled. I was looking at the datasheets for the chips to see if I could find a correlation and noticed the following.

The EN4490EN has 3 different "sound quality" settings according to the datasheet. How does the N3 work with these SQ settings? I'm not sure how the designer implemented this setting; is it fixed, auto-set based on another setting, or can we get a firmware change to allow us to test the different settings? The datasheet I have shows this setting on page 42:

 

[hung031086]

I just received my N3 today from musicteck.
N3 + U12 w/M15

 

[nmatheis]

Thank you for the clarification on it's output as a transport. I personally would rather see the volume and gain bypassed when in digital out. Right now when i play a FLAC volume and gain work, but when playing a DSD file volume and gain are bypassed. I can leave the eq on or off.

I'd prefer it to be optional. I do have circumstances where variable digital out is very handy and others where is rather it was fixed. Making it optional would be a best of both worlds compromise.

 

[CapnCook]

Thank you for the clarification on it's output as a transport. I personally would rather see the volume and gain bypassed when in digital out. Right now when i play a FLAC volume and gain work, but when playing a DSD file volume and gain are bypassed. I can leave the eq on or off.

Can this option be user configurable through the UI?

 

[Andykong]

Thank you for the clarification on it's output as a transport. I personally would rather see the volume and gain bypassed when in digital out. Right now when i play a FLAC volume and gain work, but when playing a DSD file volume and gain are bypassed. I can leave the eq on or off.

Noted your recommendation for digital output setup.

PCM is multi-bit, and adding volume control feature is very straight forward and won't affect the original content. DSD is 1-bit by nature, adding volume control will likely involve changing the original digital bit-stream and goes outside the NOS DAC context.

 

[Andykong]

I agree that it's hard to reproduce! It seems to happen more if I change the EQ or digital filter while a file is playing. If I pause the track first, it doesn't seem to do it except occasionally. It also seems to happen more the higher the resolution of the file playing.

It doesn't bother me at all now that I've got the EQ and filters figured out; I don't change them except occasionally and even then it's direct to the other setting.

However, I have noticed an occasional weirdness in some tracks with the highs, no matter what digital filter is enabled. It started with me noticing that enabling the EQ causes the mids to recess. I added a single +2 to 16K and noticed it. Everything else was flat on the EQ settings, yet the mids seemed to recess a hair. I then noticed the highs lost body when the EQ was enabled. I was looking at the datasheets for the chips to see if I could find a correlation and noticed the following.

The EN4490EN has 3 different "sound quality" settings according to the datasheet. How does the N3 work with these SQ settings? I'm not sure how the designer implemented this setting; is it fixed, auto-set based on another setting, or can we get a firmware change to allow us to test the different settings? The datasheet I have shows this setting on page 42:

Sound tuning is supposed to be our trade secret, but since I can't fix the bug you located, I shall give away this one at your request.

First of all, the terms quality is not exactly a very descriptive terms, we can't find any quantifiable improvement on parameters such as THD+N, S/N, crosstalk, .... etc when we change this setting, we believe it might have minor implication on the sound signature, but not necessarily upgrading or downgrading the sound quality,

N3 use default (0,0) setting, Cayin opt for the standard output because we prefer to work with Standard digital output from the DAC chipset because we are confident that we can achieve the sound signature we have in mind through analogue circuit design and choice of components

 

[Andykong]

I'd prefer it to be optional. I do have circumstances where variable digital out is very handy and others where is rather it was fixed. Making it optional would be a best of both worlds compromise.

Can this option be user configurable through the UI?

OK, that's not an option available on the table but I can find out if this is technically feasible, or require a special operation steps (such as reboot) before the new parameters can be effective.

But for the sake of discussion, if we assume user configurable setting is not possible, what will be your preference on N3's digital output?

 

[rathgar]

I was just wanting to make sure it was not being processed or minimally so before being outputted. If it is left adjustable. What is the equivialent setting when playing a Flac as far as the gain, and volume setting, to match when it is playing a DSD file? I'm new to this so does it even matter? Thanks for the answers.