[NateInBelgium]

Aha! I knew it! Lovely shade of red. I would have chosen that should it have been available at launch.

 

[docholliday]

@Andykong , does engaging the EQ automatically drop the output by -6db? It seems that enabling the EQ seems to lower the volume level, even if I'm just adding +1db to 16KHz.

 

[Francisk]

It makes sense to drop the output by -6dB when EQ is engaged otherwise any boost on any frequencies may clip and distort the peaks of an already hot signal of a mastered track which revolves close to 0dB. For those who understand digital audio, any signal that shoots above 0dB will produce harsh distortion unlike analog equipment which is more forgiving. Analog equipment will saturate the sound that is above 0dB but still have headroom until the boost is too much where it distorts. Then again, analog distortion is more tolerable and not as harsh sounding as digital distortion.

Unlike EQs on professional consoles (mixers) where each track has a channel strip to attenuate the signal of the audio track via the fader before applying EQ on each channel during a mixdown session to avoid clipping, mastered tracks on DAPs has been finalised with optimum level and any boost on the EQ will most likely exceed the 0dB limit of digital audio. Hope this answers the common questions on why most DAPs' signal has been intentionally dropped by 6dB when EQ is engaged.

 

[docholliday]

It makes sense to drop the output by -6dB when EQ is engaged otherwise any boost on any frequencies may clip and distort the peaks of an already hot signal of a mastered track which revolves close to 0dB. For those who understand digital audio, any signal that shoots above 0dB will produce harsh distortion unlike analog equipment which is more forgiving. Analog equipment will saturate the sound that is above 0dB but still have headroom until the boost is too much where it distorts. Then again, analog distortion is more tolerable and not as harsh sounding as digital distortion.

Unlike EQs on professional consoles (mixers) where each track has a channel strip to attenuate the signal of the audio track via the fader before applying EQ on each channel during a mixdown session to avoid clipping, mastered tracks on DAPs has been finalised with optimum level and any boost on the EQ will most likely exceed the 0dB limit of digital audio. Hope this answers the common questions on why most DAPs' signal has been intentionally dropped by 6dB when EQ is engaged.

I'm well familiar with the reasons why 0db is clipping as I am a sound engineer. And I understand digital audio quite well. I was asking if the N3 in fact does drop level, and if it's -6db fixed or variable based on total EQ if it does.

First of all, if you are running a track that's mixed at 0db peak, you did it wrong. That track was mastered with no headroom for anything. Second, if your playback volume is maxed (0db/unity), then expect clipping or distortion no matter what the EQ is at as most amplifiers are outside their voltage/current capability on portable equipment.

My Zune doesn't drop any DB when the EQ is engaged, neither does my Sony NW. And, the X1-II doesn't drop any level - it changes the maximum output amplification to 88 from 100 when the EQ is engaged as a limiter. If it's -6db, that means that each step of the volume is .5db.

 

[Francisk]

I'm well familiar with the reasons why 0db is clipping as I am a sound engineer. And I understand digital audio quite well. I was asking if the N3 in fact does drop level, and if it's -6db fixed or variable based on total EQ if it does.

First of all, if you are running a track that's mixed at 0db peak, you did it wrong. That track was mastered with no headroom for anything. Second, if your playback volume is maxed (0db/unity), then expect clipping or distortion no matter what the EQ is at as most amplifiers are outside their voltage/current capability on portable equipment.

My Zune doesn't drop any DB when the EQ is engaged, neither does my Sony NW. And, the X1-II doesn't drop any level - it changes the maximum output amplification to 88 from 100 when the EQ is engaged as a limiter. If it's -6db, that means that each step of the volume is .5db.

Please read my message carefully, I mentioned that some mastered tracks revolves around the 0dB region, not at 0dB. You should know by now that there's a trend of some commercial mastering engineers that master their tracks VERY HOT (commercial music loudness war). To be honest, there are many occasions when I cringe hearing distortion in mastered commercial tracks.

Having said that, no sensible mastering engineer in his right mind will master tracks that hit 0dB....he should be shot for doing that....lol. Just so you know, I'm in the music production business for many years myself and it surprised me that being an audio professional yourself, you're not aware that many DAPs attenuate the signal when EQ is engaged to avoid digital distortion. It really is so simple. Oh btw, I will never ever use at all cost, any EQ that once engaged, the limiter kicks in...lol. I'm sure you're well aware of what limiters can do to a mastered track. Well...to each his own as long as you're happy.

 

[docholliday]

Please read my message carefully, I mentioned that some mastered tracks revolves around the 0dB region, not at 0dB. You should know by now that there's a trend of some commercial mastering engineers that master their tracks VERY HOT (commercial music loudness war). Having said that, no sensible mastering engineer in his right mind will master tracks that hit 0dB and I'm not as silly as to not know that. Just so you know, I'm in the music production business for many years myself and it surprised me that being an audio professional yourself, you're not aware that many DAPs attenuate the signal to avoid digital distortion. Oh btw, I for one will never ever use any EQ that once engaged, the limiter kicks in...lol. I'm sure you're well aware of what limiters can do to a mastered track if you're a professional sound engineer

Yes, I'm well aware of poor mastering - I do more mastering than tracking nowadays. The point of my original question was to Andy about whether the EQ dropped a fixed -6db or if it varied - which it seems to do. I'm working on finding some rhyme or reason for the bug where the EQ quits working suddenly when changed a lot on the N3. This has nothing to do with the "common question" on why a -6db cut occurs, but rather whether certain combinations may be causing a buffer or integer overflow in the code resulting in the EQ quitting and locking to an "OFF" position.

I too avoid brickwall limiters and don't even really like hard knee compressors. When I did live sound, those were all too common and nowadays I'm working on a smaller A&H QU24 so I get a really nice digital PEQ/GEQ that's clean but doesn't try to think for me.

 

[nmatheis]

Please, please, please I beg of you. Don't take my thread into the realm of Sound Science. Hint, hint, there's a thread for that...

 

[Francisk]

Yes, I'm well aware of poor mastering - I do more mastering than tracking nowadays. The point of my original question was to Andy about whether the EQ dropped a fixed -6db or if it varied - which it seems to do. I'm working on finding some rhyme or reason for the bug where the EQ quits working suddenly when changed a lot on the N3. This has nothing to do with the "common question" on why a -6db cut occurs, but rather whether certain combinations may be causing a buffer or integer overflow in the code resulting in the EQ quitting and locking to an "OFF" position.

I too avoid brickwall limiters and don't even really like hard knee compressors. When I did live sound, those were all too common and nowadays I'm working on a smaller A&H QU24 so I get a really nice digital PEQ/GEQ that's clean but doesn't try to think for me.

Very true indeed docholliday, compressors and limiters are good tools but used wrongly, it can cause more damage than good...it kills the music. Sorry for derailing this wonderful thread nmatheis...we promise this will be the last one

 

[docholliday]

Please, please, please I beg of you. Don't take my thread into the realm of Sound Science. Hint, hint, there's a thread for that...

I'm not...I'm working on figuring out a possible (and reproducible) cause for the EQ bug on the N3.

 

[groucho69]

Finally we have everything on hand to engage mass production and we can set a date on the RED N3.

Yes, the forthcoming N3 is Red, as someone has guessed already.





Unless there are unforeseeable complication showing up, otherwise we can expect the Red N3 available within 2 weeks time.

The Red shade will be affected by the lighting so the color might not appear to be uniformed. We'll be showing the real thing at the LAAS (Booth 113) next month, if you are attending the LAAS this year, please come to check it out in person.

Yes cayenne!

 

[Andykong]

I was just wanting to make sure it was not being processed or minimally so before being outputted. If it is left adjustable. What is the equivialent setting when playing a Flac as far as the gain, and volume setting, to match when it is playing a DSD file? I'm new to this so does it even matter? Thanks for the answers.

For the moment, please set the volume to maximum at gain at M, that is the setting recommended by my Engineer.

 

[Andykong]

Andy-
I may be in the minority here but I like the option to use the EQ while connected to an outboard DAC. Volume, I couldn't care less about though. Also, I think it's strange that you can't reliably reproduce the EQ bug, it happens to me literally every time I mess around with the sliders. Have you tried drastically changing them on custom while listening to a song? Once I do that and move to EQ off, it stops working.

OK, I'll give it a try again. But looks like this is related to interrupt handling, not exactly an EQ function related bug.

If you don't really care or mind about volume setting, the you should be happy to know that EQ will always be user controllable in regardless of the final outcome.

One last comment, the EQ will only work at 24bit/48kHz or below, the digital EQ won't kick in if you are playing any PCM above 48kHz or any DSD file.

 

[Andykong]

Hello guys, I just received my new Cayin N3 but I have a few problems with it:

- a number of HD FLAC tracks playing norally on my pc with Foobar not recognized;
- e-mail of Cayin technical service non existent (should be info@cayin.cn as stated on their website http://en.cayin.cn/about?c=166 );
- .pdf manual of the device unavailable on the manufacturer's website ( http://en.cayin.cn/download/index).

Anyone with same problems? Is there any limitation on hd .flac tracks? I have Firmware 1.1 preinstalled, should be the latest one...

Thanks for your attention.

I can think of two condition when a FLAC file cannot be played satisfactory.
N3 can only support FLAC upto 24Bit/192kHz
N3 do not support DXD encoding, If your FLAC is in fact a repackaged DXD file, then N3 won't recognized it.

English manual are under translation, will try our best to roll out ASAP.

 

[Andykong]

I am not expert on DSD. I know that changing volume on DSD can't be done with the DSD signal itself. But I think there may be some kind of control bit related to volume that possibly can be transmitted that speak to the DSD decoding device and its amps. Because I can send volume information from a PC running foobar or JRiver in ASIO to my current DAP and that will change volume on the DAP in DAC mode.

The essences of DSD is 1 bit, there isn't any control bit available.

In fact, even in music mastering process, if you have multi-track recorded in DSD directly and the mastering engineer want to adjust the volume of individual tracks in order to create the desirable soundstage/imaging and music presentation, they need to change the 1 bit DSD signal to multi-bit, process the data, and then change back to 1 bit DSD again. This is what DXD format was created for.

 

[Andykong]

I suppose if its just volume/gain, and with EQ off EQ is bypassed, and of course DSD is untouched, then leave it as is would the preference.

With rathgar's question answered, we'd be able to make out settings such that the digital output is "nearly"
untouched.

This, in essence, gives the user the choice to alter the tone or not (via EQ settings), and only have volume affected. This would benefit those who do not have adjustable amplification.

That was one of the key scenarios that lead to the current digital output design. You have read our mind.