Can you hear a difference between DAC's?

Can you hear a difference between DAC's?


  • Total voters
    397
Aug 9, 2023 at 7:37 AM Post #541 of 613
Eelco Grimm is one of the preeminent designers of digital audio in the world …
Great, as he did not “even mention good or bad recordings, let alone how a great DAC would differentiate one from the other and then make the bad ones more acceptable” - then why are you contradicting “one of the preeminent designers of digital audio in the world”?

G
 
Aug 9, 2023 at 7:44 AM Post #542 of 613
To extend this a little. It’s not just about the comparison in raw performance, which can be measured, that plays a part. The other factor to consider is that your ears provide a limit. So it becomes comparing the top speed of vehicle on a road with a 70mph speed limit. Sure the Tesla may be 10 or even 50mph faster than the Prius but you can’t use it above 70 anyway.

When you consider the whole chain and include the amplifier and the headphones you might well then notice a difference. Consider the headphones to be a trailer. Some are big heavy trailers (susvara) some are tiny little light ones (Shure IEM). Now it’s quite possible the Prius will only get to 50 with a big heavy trailer tagged on behind and might even start to make more motor noise as it tries to do it while a Tesla might still make it to the 70 speed limit.
you're describing what the amplifier does, really...
it's performance can vary greatly based on the load from the headphones.

that's not the case for the DAC
 
Aug 9, 2023 at 7:54 AM Post #543 of 613
you're describing what the amplifier does, really...
it's performance can vary greatly based on the load from the headphones.

that's not the case for the DAC
Duh…. That’s exactly what I said.
 
Aug 9, 2023 at 7:55 AM Post #544 of 613
When you consider the whole chain and include the amplifier and the headphones you might well then notice a difference. Consider the headphones to be a trailer. Some are big heavy trailers (susvara) some are tiny little light ones (Shure IEM). Now it’s quite possible the Prius will only get to 50 with a big heavy trailer tagged on behind and might even start to make more motor noise as it tries to do it while a Tesla might still make it to the 70 speed limit.

Sorry that's not a great analogy as added weight affects a vehicles acceleration, it doesn't affect top speed (on a flat).
 
Aug 9, 2023 at 7:57 AM Post #545 of 613
Sorry that's not a great analogy as added weight affects a vehicles acceleration, it doesn't affect top speed (on a flat).
You forgot to add on a frictionless surface in a vacuum..
 
Aug 9, 2023 at 8:05 AM Post #547 of 613
You were talking about cars, they will achieve top speed with more weight but it will take longer.
A heavier load generates higher friction. A trailer on the back of a car creates more drag. Both reduce the top speed but hey I get it my analogy sucked.
 
Aug 9, 2023 at 8:19 AM Post #548 of 613
What the heck, did you guys actually go right down another rabbit hole based on the car analogy I made in my post and are now fully engaged in working out a car-based methodology whilst inventing the necessary terminology to go with it....

..................................................:thinking:

starts backing away slowly
 
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Aug 9, 2023 at 8:37 AM Post #549 of 613
So a rich person can safely buy the most expensive dac in the shop knowing it's going to sound superior to everything else without even testing it in their system?
That rational goes against everything I've learnt in the science forums.
It's simple, if the measurements are something like voltage, frequency, some specific type of distortion or something as silly as time, then it's unreliable, as none of those things are real music.

But there is one thing we can always trust in this world, the power of money! For that, we have very reliable graphs such as this one I made after gathering all the data from over 160 research papers in 34 seconds. I swear on my personal experience in declaring stuff true when I want, that it's legit, just like audiophile sellers and reviewers do:
good sound lol.jpg

Units are irrelevant when the results are this clear. So we can jump right into interpreting the unscaled data like real experts.
As you can see, with no money you get nothing, then with little money you rapidly get an exponential improvement in sound(foremost left of the graph).
After that there is an area with pretty wide range of prices(called Low Objective Linearity) where it's much harder to tell what's going on or to properly correlate sound and money. Sometimes the cheaper product has more goodness, sometimes not, it's the kind of chaos better left for the poor to figure out.
But if you spend a lot more money to get over the LOL area, you finally reach the point where it gets consistently better again. It's not me saying it, it's the graph I made up, so it has to be true.

Were excluded from this report, the brands that simply add zeroes to their subpar products, place them into massive heavy casing and make up stories about non-liable, non-quantified subjective benefits from super exclusive tech such as stickers, paint or laser removed codes to hide generic component references. Those cases were considered irrelevant outliers because as everybody knows if there's one place in the world of high-tech where all the liars and pixie dust sellers go straight to jail, it's the audiophile market.

PS, if anyone needs high level photoshop qualifications for a project, contact me. As you can see, I know my stuff and always deliver professional level of work.



I'll leave the details how DACs work to the experts, who will eventually comment on the video, too. This is typical audiophile talk, lots of technical chatter without any substance. It's just advertising their own "competence". There are no ultrasonic noise issues in DS DACs, otherwise the industry would have solved these issues already.

It also doesn't answer the question how the "quality" of a recording would relate to the "quality" of a DAC. You claimed it would take a good DAC for bad recordings to sound good. Best you post some examples what you hear, good and bad, and what audio equipment you use to determine that.
I also didn't see anything clearly wrong in his technical description of DAC designs. Obviously, at no point in the video does he even come close to addressing REX's concept. But how could it happen when it's about knowledge that science will only be able to discover in the future? Don't put him in a difficult situation, having to come out as a time traveler, that's not cool, man.

The concept of good dac improving bad recordings reminded me of a comedic bit from at least 20 years ago where a guy shows his new CD player to his friend and explains that it can intelligently improve the quality of the music being played. So the other guy puts on a CD of some average pop singer who's only famous because girls find him hot. No sound comes out.
Then first guy goes, "see, it's working perfectly".




Can you imagine, I made many posts about blind testing in here with no trouble from the authorities despite explicit laws against it, and I'm going to go down for a trolol post. It's like Capone falling for tax fraud.
 
Aug 9, 2023 at 8:50 AM Post #551 of 613
I'll eventually upgrade for the knob, because I like to use knobs, and my Cobalt doesn't have a knob. Knobs are useful, and gain is useful for when I want to use my ie300...right? And maybe a screen with pretty lights would be nice, certainly impress a visiting friend if it displays some very high numbers.
Careful there. Knobs are a very controversial topic! Some say some knobs are more knobby than other knobs. I don’t think there are differences between them at all. But since there are no measurement devices that can measure the knob-turning experience, I guess we have to rely on opinions.

So, you might as well start a new poll “Can you feel a difference between knobs?” just to be sure! Possible answers could be: Yes; No; Yes, but only on Saturdays.
 
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Aug 9, 2023 at 8:54 AM Post #552 of 613
So a rich person can safely buy the most expensive dac in the shop knowing it's going to sound superior to everything else without even testing it in their system?
That rational goes against everything I've learnt in the science forums.
That's not what I said. What I said is that in order to hear a significant difference, you have to move up to different price points. I also didn't say better, I said different.
 
Aug 9, 2023 at 9:04 AM Post #553 of 613
What I said is that in order to hear a significant difference, you have to move up to different price points. I also didn't say better, I said different.
So if we rename the Y axis (“Sound Goodness”) to “Significant Difference” then castleofargh’s graph still applies?

G
 
Aug 9, 2023 at 9:09 AM Post #554 of 613
It's simple, if the measurements are something like voltage, frequency, some specific type of distortion or something as silly as time, then it's unreliable, as none of those things are real music.

But there is one thing we can always trust in this world, the power of money! For that, we have very reliable graphs such as this one I made after gathering all the data from over 160 research papers in 34 seconds. I swear on my personal experience in declaring stuff true when I want, that it's legit, just like audiophile sellers and reviewers do:
good sound lol.jpg

Units are irrelevant when the results are this clear. So we can jump right into interpreting the unscaled data like real experts.
As you can see, with no money you get nothing, then with little money you rapidly get an exponential improvement in sound(foremost left of the graph).
After that there is an area with pretty wide range of prices(called Low Objective Linearity) where it's much harder to tell what's going on or to properly correlate sound and money. Sometimes the cheaper product has more goodness, sometimes not, it's the kind of chaos better left for the poor to figure out.
But if you spend a lot more money to get over the LOL area, you finally reach the point where it gets consistently better again. It's not me saying it, it's the graph I made up, so it has to be true.

I can't quite believe the tone of this! I'm getting the impression that somehow you made things up to back non-scientific claims!
 
Aug 9, 2023 at 9:09 AM Post #555 of 613
That's not what I said. What I said is that in order to hear a significant difference, you have to move up to different price points. I also didn't say better, I said different.

'Also, a $100,000 dac will not sound like a $20,000 dac'.


'Hey Bob I just spent $100k on a new dac'.
'Does it sound better than your $20k one?'
'No mate, it's just different'.
 

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