Can you hear a difference between DAC's?

[gregorio]

From what I understood, the guys at Schiit never really cared much about measurements and put their stuff together based on hearing impressions.

I’ve heard that claim but it appears to be a myth. Jason Stoddard of Schitt went into considerable detail on this matter (in this post), where he listed an entire battery of measurement equipment Schitt routinely use and stated: “Without measurements, it would essentially be impossible to develop our products…and without deep, high-quality measurement capability, the products wouldn’t be as good as they are.”

I'm not sure I like those blind tests that you can do online. While they clearly are recordings of the output from different DACs

I’m not sure what online blind tests you’re referring to or what exactly they’re recordings of.

wouldn't "one" assume that those esoteric summit-fi DACs could magically remove the distortions introduced by the cheap "bad" DAC and thus result in no perceivable difference?

It entirely depends on what “esoteric summit-fi DACs” you’re talking about. The highest fidelity DACs introduce artefacts at a lower level than typical DACs. For example jitter artefacts at say -150dB rather than at say -130dB, which is quite a big (20dB) difference. However, this difference cannot be realised/resolved into sound. Consider that with HPs the average listening level is around 63-65dBSPL and very loud would be 70–75dBSPL. This puts peak levels at around 72dBSPL or in the case of very loud AND highly dynamic, uncompressed recordings, peaks up to around 90dBSPL. Taking this worst case, then our moderate fidelity DAC (with jitter artefacts at -130dB), would produce jitter artefacts at -40dBSPL. However, no sound at all (other than ONLY the random collisions of air molecules) is -23dBSPL. Therefore, -40dBSPL cannot exist (in air) and obviously neither can -60dBSPL in the case of the high fidelity DAC. So as there cannot be a difference in the sound, there cannot be any question of hearing one, even if human hearing were infinite/perfect!

Having said this, despite the name/implication/marketing, some “esoteric summit or high fidelity DACs” are not summit-fi or even high-fidelity, some are significantly lower fidelity than even very cheap mass market DACs. For example some NOS DACs (and some DACs with an optional filter that emulates them) and some “tube” DACs introduce relatively massive distortion/artefacts, say at -40dB that not only obviously can exist as sound but is within the threshold of human audibility.

G

 

[mbphotox]

https://ethanwiner.com/loop-back.htm

meant that site you suggested earlier. It's not a blind test, I realise, but one could easily use those files in an ABX blind test, no?


Also, you'd be surprised at how MANY people will be angry if you tell them that "HiFi" is supposed to be "High Fidelity" instead of just "good sounding gear"
I've gotten banned on r/Audiophile for an argument about this very thing..

 

[gregorio]

https://ethanwiner.com/loop-back.htm
meant that site you suggested earlier. It's not a blind test, I realise, but one could easily use those files in an ABX blind test, no?

Ah, I understand now. Yes indeed you can use them for controlled testing. And “yes”, a high (or even mediocre) fidelity DAC by today’s standards would have lower distortion/artefacts than a nearly 20 year old, budget ($25) sound card and would be even harder to hear/differentiate.

you'd be surprised at how MANY people will be angry if you tell them that "HiFi" is supposed to be "High Fidelity"

I have noticed that many don’t seem to know what (audio) “fidelity” actually means, thinking that it instead means “sounds good to me”. In fact, this thread demonstrates that some don’t seem to know the meaning of even some non-technical words/terms (like hobby/hobbyist for example).

However, terms such as “fidelity”/“high-fidelity” are routinely misrepresented in audiophile marketing/publications, so it’s not at all surprising that those only exposed to such information don’t really know what it means. Although it’s hardly some massive undertaking to go and look it up, say on Wikipedia.

G

 

[mbphotox]

I was referring to the higher priced Schiit DACs, such as the Yggdrasil. (with regards to the makers designing them "to sound good" )

That thing performs a lot worse than all the cheap ones (Modi, Modius, etc.) despite costing 10x as much.

 

[Alyosha83]

Ended up on this site/forum/thread as a music lover that just bought his first pair of like really good headphones (The meze 109 pro). At least I think they are like really good. Love the sound coming from them and how they look and how my gf was impressed. I'll probably buy the fancy copper cable just because it's pretty. And a rustic wooden stand. Anyway....

I wanted to learn whether a more expensive piece of equipment to stick them in will make them sound even better,

Spent 3 hours, utterly fascinated, reading through page by page, before finally skipping from something like page 20 to the end of the thread, half expecting Ciptoh and Gregorio still arguing, totally unrelated, about something called "DSD".


In the end the nature of the debate itself offered the best possible answer;

If you guys with your discerning hearing and measurements and thousands of pounds worth of equipment and so on have to argue on so many forums on whether there EVEN IS ANY difference between DACs and even cheap and more expensive ones, then it goes without saying that sound quality is not the reason to upgrade. Even if there is a difference that some people discern, it would be so low in this context that, it's pointless.

Imagine considering upgrading your 15k£ Prius to a 50k£ Tesla, but having to start a poll among car owners whether the latter has a more powerful engine than the former, with the poll result being split 40:50 or something with some people claiming they are almost certain their Tesla is about 10 mph faster than their Prius was.

It would be utterly absurd to invest in the more expensive cars in such conditions for the vast majority of people, unless you had money to throw away and were really, really into cars and fancied a shinier one.

I managed to extrapolate the answer I needed regardless though;

I'll eventually upgrade for the knob, because I like to use knobs, and my Cobalt doesn't have a knob. Knobs are useful, and gain is useful for when I want to use my ie300...right? And maybe a screen with pretty lights would be nice, certainly impress a visiting friend if it displays some very high numbers.

 

[mbphotox]

Ended up on this site/forum/thread as a music lover that just bought his first pair of like really good headphones (The meze 109 pro). At least I think they are like really good. Love the sound coming from them and how they look and how my gf was impressed. I'll probably buy the fancy copper cable just because it's pretty. And a rustic wooden stand. Anyway....

I wanted to learn whether a more expensive piece of equipment to stick them in will make them sound even better,

Spent 3 hours, utterly fascinated, reading through page by page, before finally skipping from something like page 20 to the end of the thread, half expecting Ciptoh and Gregorio still arguing, totally unrelated, about something called "DSD".


In the end the nature of the debate itself offered the best possible answer;

If you guys with your discerning hearing and measurements and thousands of pounds worth of equipment and so on have to argue on so many forums on whether there EVEN IS ANY difference between DACs and even cheap and more expensive ones, then it goes without saying that sound quality is not the reason to upgrade. Even if there is a difference that some people discern, it would be so low in this context that, it's pointless.

Imagine considering upgrading your 15k£ Prius to a 50k£ Tesla, but having to start a poll among car owners whether the latter has a more powerful engine than the former, with the poll result being split 40:50 or something with some people claiming they are almost certain their Tesla is about 10 mph faster than their Prius was.

It would be utterly absurd to invest in the more expensive cars in such conditions for the vast majority of people, unless you had money to throw away and were really, really into cars and fancied a shinier one.

I managed to extrapolate the answer I needed regardless though;

I'll eventually upgrade for the knob, because I like to use knobs, and my Cobalt doesn't have a knob. Knobs are useful, and gain is useful for when I want to use my ie300...right? And maybe a screen with pretty lights would be nice, certainly impress a visiting friend if it displays some very high numbers.

Love that take!
If you're interested in a nice knob, I would get an amp, though
(like a FiiO K7 with built-in DAC, has a nice knob, nice optics, and is an amp for like 200 bucks )

 

[Alyosha83]

Love that take!
If you're interested in a nice knob, I would get an amp, though
(like a FiiO K7 with built-in DAC, has a nice knob, nice optics, and is an amp for like 200 bucks )

That's a fantastic knob and great price to boot, thanks, will consider it!

 

[tlite]

It would be utterly absurd to invest in the more expensive cars in such conditions for the vast majority of people, unless you had money to throw away and were really, really into cars and fancied a shinier one.

Ah, but what if the point is not deciding what car to buy, but training oneself to be the best one can be at determining which car truly is the shiniest?

One might argue that requires looking at as many cars as possible and debating which one is the shiniest ad nauseum, whilst additionally positing that certain pairings of polish and wax make certain cars shinier than others.

To verify our assessments, we can measure the SHINAD of each car so as to make more objective the process of determining vehicle shininess.

Such is the Head-Fi way...

 

[roadcykler]

Would the DAC in a tiny Sony (or any other brand) mp3 player be the same as in a Topping D90 or a Denafrips Terminator Plus in regards to sound quality if DACs don't make a difference?

 

[mbphotox]

Would the DAC in a tiny Sony (or any other brand) mp3 player be the same as in a Topping D90 or a Denafrips Terminator Plus in regards to sound quality if DACs don't make a difference?

The difference that you'd be hearing there would be from the amplifier section, not the DAC, I think.

The actual DAC chip isn't big at all!

this is a USB stick... the iny chip labeled ESS is one of Sabre's reference level DAC chips. It's probably 5x5mm in size, if at all.

So, yes. The best DAC chips can easily fit in a tiny mp3 player.

 

[REXNFX]

Ended up on this site/forum/thread as a music lover that just bought his first pair of like really good headphones (The meze 109 pro). At least I think they are like really good. Love the sound coming from them and how they look and how my gf was impressed. I'll probably buy the fancy copper cable just because it's pretty. And a rustic wooden stand. Anyway....

I wanted to learn whether a more expensive piece of equipment to stick them in will make them sound even better,

Spent 3 hours, utterly fascinated, reading through page by page, before finally skipping from something like page 20 to the end of the thread, half expecting Ciptoh and Gregorio still arguing, totally unrelated, about something called "DSD".


In the end the nature of the debate itself offered the best possible answer;

If you guys with your discerning hearing and measurements and thousands of pounds worth of equipment and so on have to argue on so many forums on whether there EVEN IS ANY difference between DACs and even cheap and more expensive ones, then it goes without saying that sound quality is not the reason to upgrade. Even if there is a difference that some people discern, it would be so low in this context that, it's pointless.

Imagine considering upgrading your 15k£ Prius to a 50k£ Tesla, but having to start a poll among car owners whether the latter has a more powerful engine than the former, with the poll result being split 40:50 or something with some people claiming they are almost certain their Tesla is about 10 mph faster than their Prius was.

It would be utterly absurd to invest in the more expensive cars in such conditions for the vast majority of people, unless you had money to throw away and were really, really into cars and fancied a shinier one.

I managed to extrapolate the answer I needed regardless though;

I'll eventually upgrade for the knob, because I like to use knobs, and my Cobalt doesn't have a knob. Knobs are useful, and gain is useful for when I want to use my ie300...right? And maybe a screen with pretty lights would be nice, certainly impress a visiting friend if it displays some very high numbers.

Yup, all reasonable DAC's sound the same with good recordings. Unfortunately most digital recordings are bad so you need a great DAC to make them sound acceptable.

 

[tlite]

Yup, all reasonable DAC's sound the same with good recordings. Unfortunately most digital recordings are bad so you need a great DAC to make them sound acceptable.

What's an example of a digital recording you think is bad, and one you think is good? I'd like to see if I can hear the differences...

 

[REXNFX]

What's an example of a digital recording you think is bad, and one you think is good? I'd like to see if I can hear the differences...

Sure, what music genre you like?

 

[wantan]

What's an example of a digital recording you think is bad, and one you think is good? I'd like to see if I can hear the differences...

Looking forward to some examples of good vs bad.
How would a DAC bother about the quality of a recording, how would it even know what's good or what's bad?

 

[paulrbarnard]

Imagine considering upgrading your 15k£ Prius to a 50k£ Tesla, but having to start a poll among car owners whether the latter has a more powerful engine than the former, with the poll result being split 40:50 or something with some people claiming they are almost certain their Tesla is about 10 mph faster than their Prius was.

To extend this a little. It’s not just about the comparison in raw performance, which can be measured, that plays a part. The other factor to consider is that your ears provide a limit. So it becomes comparing the top speed of vehicle on a road with a 70mph speed limit. Sure the Tesla may be 10 or even 50mph faster than the Prius but you can’t use it above 70 anyway.

When you consider the whole chain and include the amplifier and the headphones you might well then notice a difference. Consider the headphones to be a trailer. Some are big heavy trailers (susvara) some are tiny little light ones (Shure IEM). Now it’s quite possible the Prius will only get to 50 with a big heavy trailer tagged on behind and might even start to make more motor noise as it tries to do it while a Tesla might still make it to the 70 speed limit.