Campfire - Solaris
Feb 4, 2019 at 5:52 AM Post #3,421 of 12,035
Before I asked her to do a blind test, my gf also said that the WM1A was better 100%. Then she chose the zx 3/4 times.
Since measurements are apparently useless/stupid/evil, a blind test is the best tool left available...

My current "DAP" is the Samsung Galaxy S8, a lowly smartphone. It just didn't feel right to not have a dedicated hi-fi music player so I tried different other DAPs/DACs with my Andromeda S to see if any of them could give me a significantly better sound. Output impedance is a thing with the Andros, so that eliminated a few sources almost from the get go. In the end I really wanted to get the iDSD Micro BL. I didn't really hear a big difference, but it was black and it felt cool to use an analog potentiometer again. After listening to it for about a week (brain burn in) I asked my wife to help me with a blind test between the Micro and the S8. The results didn't lie: I couldn't really tell one was better than the other and I often thought I was listening to one, when in fact it was the other.

It's very possible that my hearing is not that good and this explains my inability to notice differences in DAPs, even differences that are labeled "night-and-day", "completely different league", etc. At the same time, I can detect sound differences due to OI on my Andromeda quite easily, so I'm not completely deaf. I have to say, though, that when reading comments and reviews on HeadFi I sometimes feel like quoting the great Mugatu: :)

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Twice the price, no difference in sound. Makes perfect sense.
Actually, it does make perfect sense. (I have no experience with the things you are comparing, what I'm commenting on is the basic marketing principle)
 
Feb 4, 2019 at 6:00 AM Post #3,422 of 12,035
what is this? play flac file?


wow....
looking fwd for the impression....
Since measurements are apparently useless/stupid/evil, a blind test is the best tool left available...

My current "DAP" is the Samsung Galaxy S8, a lowly smartphone. It just didn't feel right to not have a dedicated hi-fi music player so I tried different other DAPs/DACs with my Andromeda S to see if any of them could give me a significantly better sound. Output impedance is a thing with the Andros, so that eliminated a few sources almost from the get go. In the end I really wanted to get the iDSD Micro BL. I didn't really hear a big difference, but it was black and it felt cool to use an analog potentiometer again. After listening to it for about a week (brain burn in) I asked my wife to help me with a blind test between the Micro and the S8. The results didn't lie: I couldn't really tell one was better than the other and I often thought I was listening to one, when in fact it was the other.

It's very possible that my hearing is not that good and this explains my inability to notice differences in DAPs, even differences that are labeled "night-and-day", "completely different league", etc. At the same time, I can detect sound differences due to OI on my Andromeda quite easily, so I'm not completely deaf. I have to say, though, that when reading comments and reviews on HeadFi I sometimes feel like quoting the great Mugatu: :)




Actually, it does make perfect sense. (I have no experience with the things you are comparing, what I'm commenting on is the basic marketing principle)
If your phone sounds no different than the ifi Bl then you saved money.
 
Feb 4, 2019 at 6:08 AM Post #3,423 of 12,035
Since measurements are apparently useless/stupid/evil, a blind test is the best tool left available...

My current "DAP" is the Samsung Galaxy S8, a lowly smartphone. It just didn't feel right to not have a dedicated hi-fi music player so I tried different other DAPs/DACs with my Andromeda S to see if any of them could give me a significantly better sound. Output impedance is a thing with the Andros, so that eliminated a few sources almost from the get go. In the end I really wanted to get the iDSD Micro BL. I didn't really hear a big difference, but it was black and it felt cool to use an analog potentiometer again. After listening to it for about a week (brain burn in) I asked my wife to help me with a blind test between the Micro and the S8. The results didn't lie: I couldn't really tell one was better than the other and I often thought I was listening to one, when in fact it was the other.

It's very possible that my hearing is not that good and this explains my inability to notice differences in DAPs, even differences that are labeled "night-and-day", "completely different league", etc. At the same time, I can detect sound differences due to OI on my Andromeda quite easily, so I'm not completely deaf. I have to say, though, that when reading comments and reviews on HeadFi I sometimes feel like quoting the great Mugatu: :)




Actually, it does make perfect sense. (I have no experience with the things you are comparing, what I'm commenting on is the basic marketing principle)
I just unplugged my ZX300 and went back to a plenue D and my galaxy S8 with my Cl2. Couldn't do more than 5 minutes.
For the brief period that I did have the Solaris, I did not run it out of my phone, so I have no idea what you are or are not hearing.
But seriously if you cannot tell the difference in SQ between an Galaxy S8 and a WM1A or other upper/mid/lower tier daps, I don't know what to tell you.
On the plus side, your ears don't bleed out your pocket like mine do.

Add: I am not a fan of BA iems AT ALL, maybe this is a BA thing.
Just saw your sig.
 
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Feb 4, 2019 at 7:09 AM Post #3,424 of 12,035
If your phone sounds no different than the ifi Bl then you saved money.

Yes, but I can't get my audiophile badge that way. :frowning2:

I just unplugged my ZX300 and went back to a plenue D and my galaxy S8 with my Cl2. Couldn't do more than 5 minutes.
For the brief period that I did have the Solaris, I did not run it out of my phone, so I have no idea what you are or are not hearing.
But seriously if you cannot tell the difference in SQ between an Galaxy S8 and a WM1A or other upper/mid/lower tier daps, I don't know what to tell you.
On the plus side, your ears don't bleed out your pocket like mine do.

Add: I am not a fan of BA iems AT ALL, maybe this is a BA thing.
Just saw your sig.

The Andromeda and Solaris are really sensitive. The CL2 is a power hungry beast. I just briefly listened to the CL2 this Saturday, right after the Solaris (source was SP1000.Bal) and I had to change the volume from ~40 to MAX, and the CL2 was still quieter (and sounded like crap too). Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that if you evaluate DAPs using the CL2 I can see how a phone would not have the necessary power to compete with a dedicated audio source.
 
Feb 4, 2019 at 8:13 AM Post #3,425 of 12,035
Yes, but I can't get my audiophile badge that way. :frowning2:



The Andromeda and Solaris are really sensitive. The CL2 is a power hungry beast. I just briefly listened to the CL2 this Saturday, right after the Solaris (source was SP1000.Bal) and I had to change the volume from ~40 to MAX, and the CL2 was still quieter (and sounded like crap too). Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that if you evaluate DAPs using the CL2 I can see how a phone would not have the necessary power to compete with a dedicated audio source.
Damn that's way too loud. .
The CL2 signature is pretty much the iem version of an full size Electrostat speaker system, it does not have an elevated bass tuning, I am using maybe a 5% volume increase on what I was listening to the Solaris at.
At the volume you were at, no wonder it sounded like a mess, the treble would be too hot.
The CL2 have near zero distortion, and it's very easy to go over board on volume. Give this attached quote a quick read.
Hello all,

I’ve taken delivery of my CL2 and am loving them despite only having about 25hrs on them. I’ve heard enough to draw some conclusions and also come up with a hypothesis on why they are such a marmite IEM.

First, some background on my biases and prejudices. I apologise if some of this sounds like a rant and if it is ill informed, please go easy on me and correct me gently!

My main area of listening experience is with what most would consider to be a serious full size rig (Wadia CDP/DAC, Modwright Valve preamp, EAR 509 valve mono blocks feeding Quad ESL989 electrostatic speakers). I prize a liquid and organic sound with a natural timbre. I have played in orchestras and attended enough live concerts to know what a real instrument or performance sounds like.

My headphone experience includes 2 years with hifi man RE01 followed by the last 4 years with Earsonics SM64. I’m not a gear-head so I don’t chop and change equipment lightly.

I’ve had to look into a replacement for my SM64s as I was getting an intermittent problem on one channel. I have auditioned the Earsonics ES3 and InEar SD2 and SD5 as potential replacements.

What has surprised me, coming back to the headphone forae, is how far away from the reproducing the intent of the recording a lot of the products have become. The ethos and approach is totally different to the full size side of things. For example, EQ is anathema to me. So is the idea of V or U shaped tuning. Outside the headphone world, it’s called ‘loudness’ and is performed by the press of a button on cheap Japanese boom boxes. I also don’t subscribe to the idea that a product can be good but only suitable for certain genres of music. If it can’t reproduce everything with aplomb then it can’t be good.

I also find the focus on soundstaging and separation to be an understandable but misleading preoccupation with headphones. It’s understandable because the presentation of headphones ‘inside your head’ makes it easier to analyse the soundstage. It’s misleading because nobody goes to a concert and picks out the instruments’ and vocalists’ positions - because you can’t; the room interaction gets in the way. What seems to have happened is that products now have an over emphasised bass, and major in detail and separation but in the process have lost the musical message by concentrating on the hifi. The fact that Chord is so well regarded makes me wince (and yes, I’ve heard the mojo).

The final thing I find utterly perplexing is the assumption that more BA drivers = better. In the full size speaker world, few drivers = better.

Which brings me to the CL2. One driver. That’s it. I recognised the sound signature instantly - just like that of my Quad ESLs. The music is presented as if cut from the same sonic cloth. There is no crossover to get in the way, no difference in timbre between drivers. No interference, no distortion. The bass is also much more natural and true to life.

Most consumers don’t know what real bass sounds like. They have been conditioned to box colourations and this is why ‘popular’ IEMs with ‘fun’ tuning have a boosted bass response. I will never buy another Earsonics product again if the ES3 is now representative of their ‘house’ sound. It’s a travesty.

And I think this is where people are hearing the CL2 as ‘peaky’. The ability of the driver to go very loud very cleanly is prompting people to listen at higher volumes than normal to get their expected bass punch. What that does is it makes the treble too loud to bear and is crossing a pain threshold.

From what I can tell from sonion’s application notes, the FR that RHA has endowed the CL2 delivers a notionally flat response in the ear. I am certainly not hearing the peakiness that some complain of.

What I am loving about the CL2 is that it captures the performance of the artist. Sure, the hifi attributes are there, but they also gel to immerse you in the performance as a whole and transport you into the emotion of the music. In contrast, the SD5 was supremely competent in extracting all the detail of the performance but it felt like the performers were not in the same band and remained separate. There was no musical ‘whole’.

The CL2 succeeds where multi BA IEMs fail due to the crossoverless top to bottom coherence that a single planar driver provides.

When people criticise the ‘unnatural’ timbre of the driver, I find it hard to understand where this is coming from. Instrumental timbre sounds perfect to me. I do understand the comments about ‘light bass’. Planar bass takes some getting used to but again, it’s acoustically correct.

With the ‘theoretically flat’ tuning of the driver, RHA have created a perfect monitor for listening to your music. Unlike many monitors, it is musically satisfying as well. Not everyone likes the perfection of a freshly churned vanilla ice cream made with best Madagascar vanilla pods. Some people like the addition of anchovies and I’m okay with that. They just won’t like the CL2...
 
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Feb 4, 2019 at 8:24 AM Post #3,426 of 12,035
Damn that's way too loud. .
The CL2 signature is pretty much the iem version of an full size Electrostat speaker system, it does not have elevated bass tuning, I am using maybe a 5% increase on what I was listening to the Solaris at.
At the volume you were at, no wonder it sounded like a mess, the treble would be too hot.
The CL2 have zero distortion, and it's very easy to go over board on volume. Give this attached quote a quick read.

Hmm... First of all, I was not trying to bash the CL2. I think it's a very interesting IEM. I listened to them a couple of months ago and really liked the punch on the lower end, it felt very organic. The mids however were difficult to put up with. This past weekend I only got them for a couple of minutes, but I'm pretty sure that I had to increase the volume a lot on the SP1000. Ok, maybe it was not MAX, but it went over 100. Maybe there was something wrong with the setup, not sure, it was basically closing time and I was being kicked out. :)

As far as hearing differences, I cannot call bull on anybody. I'm just another guy, not a measurement instrument. All I can say is that I barely hear differences between DACs, but clearly hear differences between headphones.
 
Feb 4, 2019 at 8:50 AM Post #3,427 of 12,035
Hmm... First of all, I was not trying to bash the CL2. I think it's a very interesting IEM. I listened to them a couple of months ago and really liked the punch on the lower end, it felt very organic. The mids however were difficult to put up with. This past weekend I only got them for a couple of minutes, but I'm pretty sure that I had to increase the volume a lot on the SP1000. Ok, maybe it was not MAX, but it went over 100. Maybe there was something wrong with the setup, not sure, it was basically closing time and I was being kicked out. :)

As far as hearing differences, I cannot call bull**** on anybody. I'm just another guy, not a measurement instrument. All I can say is that I barely hear differences between DACs, but clearly hear differences between headphones.
Fair enough. We all have different ears, and tastes, and in this hobby the only thing you can trust are your ears.
On a side note:
Why I think the mids were a problem, or are with other people, is that they are arriving at volume levels to match the bass response that they are used to on their other iems, it makes the mids sound too loud and peaky.
My ears are now used to the planar bass, I made the jump from the Vega, and now I can't imagine wanting more bass on my iems.
Believe it or not, to my ears, the FR Response is flat, with mids slightly, just slightly forward.
If you get to listen to them again, try using the Solaris or Andromeda as your reference point on volume, and go maybe 5 to 10% higher. Then let your ears adjust :)
Anyways, back to the Solaris. I've hijacked this thread for far too long.

ADD: Only copper cables are good with the CL2, or the timbre is off. It is very sensitive to source and cables.
 
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Feb 4, 2019 at 10:58 AM Post #3,428 of 12,035
Yikes..didn't mean to start this whole war guys.. sorry.

I very nearly got the ZX300 during the xmas sales, in the UK Amazon had it for £357..
Also I have now thought about what I want from a DAP, and many reviews I have read of the Solaris talk about a nice synergy with the WM1Z.

When reading reviews about the WM1Z vs WM1A, and posting in the thread I was seeing a multitude for and against both, but ultimately I settled for the WM1Z based on the texture and warmth points raised by many.
I do have Chord Mojo which I will be auditioning them next to.. if the Mojo beats it I will send it back.
 
Feb 4, 2019 at 11:52 AM Post #3,429 of 12,035
Since measurements are apparently useless/stupid/evil, a blind test is the best tool left available...

My current "DAP" is the Samsung Galaxy S8, a lowly smartphone. It just didn't feel right to not have a dedicated hi-fi music player so I tried different other DAPs/DACs with my Andromeda S to see if any of them could give me a significantly better sound. Output impedance is a thing with the Andros, so that eliminated a few sources almost from the get go. In the end I really wanted to get the iDSD Micro BL. I didn't really hear a big difference, but it was black and it felt cool to use an analog potentiometer again. After listening to it for about a week (brain burn in) I asked my wife to help me with a blind test between the Micro and the S8. The results didn't lie: I couldn't really tell one was better than the other and I often thought I was listening to one, when in fact it was the other.

It's very possible that my hearing is not that good and this explains my inability to notice differences in DAPs, even differences that are labeled "night-and-day", "completely different league", etc. At the same time, I can detect sound differences due to OI on my Andromeda quite easily, so I'm not completely deaf. I have to say, though, that when reading comments and reviews on HeadFi I sometimes feel like quoting the great Mugatu: :)
Agreed. I hear big differences with "regular DACs" - i.e. the "non-portable" ones you'd plug into a regular hifi system, and also with IEM's (i.e. I can hear big differences between the SE846 and the Solaris) but not so much with the portable DAPs/DACs when used with the Solaris.

This weekend I went to my local Headphone Bar with Solaris and iPhone 8+ in hand to compare/try a few different DAPs and ready to make a purchase. Hey, I've now purchased one of the best IEM's on the market, so I should get a DAP to match right? I could have been persuaded to leave with the WM1Z if it was half the price, and had wifi/streaming/Tidal (without is a deal breaker), but in the end I left without making a purchase.

I've owned the Mojo (great if you need extra power) and the AK240 (lovely player), but again had difficulty hearing any actual improved sound quality when compared to iPhone 8+ and Solaris.

As mentioned, you might well hear bigger differences between DAPs/DACs with less sensitive IEM's.

I haven't totally given up on a standalone DAP and will be keeping an eye on the market. Perhaps the DX220? Maybe a future Sony?
 
Feb 4, 2019 at 11:53 AM Post #3,430 of 12,035
I've listened to the Solaris on and off for a while now, but made the actual purchase on Friday. Listened for about 10 hours over the weekend. These are keepers.
 
Feb 4, 2019 at 5:42 PM Post #3,432 of 12,035
Nice profile pic, my dude. OK Computer is one of the best records ever made, IMO. The OKNOTOK re-release was even better. I liked Creep as a child, loved it actually, it's the first song I ever stood by my tape deck as a kid waiting for it to come on so I could press record real quick, but I really just "discovered" Radiohead this past summer. I've basically been obsessed ever since and I listen to them every day. In Rainbows, OK Computer, The Bends, Hail To The Thief, Kid A are all works of art.

Thank you! I agree with you. To me, OK Computer is The record. I began to listen to Radiohead back in 1995 (The Bends) and until the last one, all the records are at least excellent (some of them are superb).
I saw them live here in Porto (2002) and without any question it was the best show I had the pleasure to be in.
Very emotional music and always exploring new territories as I like.
I think I am a very lucky person to share an epoch with this fellows.
Sorry for the OT.
 
Feb 4, 2019 at 7:52 PM Post #3,433 of 12,035
Example of a track that I found had too much bass with the Vegas, but perfect with the Solaris:


for me still to much bass...
I prefer more slower tempo like below
warning for treble hater...



rec from a friend :beerchug:

btw, listening this, I prefer from my Note 8 Enyxos, the bass fell more boomy, suited for the song. quite ear addicted, unreliaze alrd repeat 3 times...
 
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Feb 5, 2019 at 12:27 AM Post #3,435 of 12,035
this song has great layers of sub bass. The Solaris definitely edges out over my Andro S.

The intro is hypnotizing.. then the Sax melts you into the sub-bass @ 2:30 . oooooweeeeeee! LTJ Bukem is a classic "Jungle / DnB" Dj from the 90's.

<iframe width="100%" height="300" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" allow="autoplay" src=""></iframe>
 
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