Campfire - Solaris
Mar 18, 2019 at 7:33 PM Post #4,186 of 12,035
So enlighten me here, since I’m always interested in learning more about this stuff. Isn’t the variation in the HD800 that @jude brings up in the 40Hz region a different issue completely from the one that the Solaris is being accused of? (Peaks/valleys in different places across the entire 1k-8k range) I do believe that product variation is a thing for all of these products, but to me, it just feels like this is an issue that’s present to different degrees. And again, correct me if I’m wrong :slight_smile:

My personal solution to this is probably going to be ordering a pair when I visit the states in July (and returning them if I’m not 100% satisfied with the specific pair I get). The only downside is that I won’t get side by side comparisons with the other IEMs I’m considering, but being out $30-40 for round trip domestic shipping is much better than losing $3-400 for international shipping/import duties.
 
Mar 18, 2019 at 9:57 PM Post #4,189 of 12,035
Mar 19, 2019 at 12:20 AM Post #4,191 of 12,035
Is the issue sides within a pair sounding differently or pairs sounding differently?

Campfire is good at matching driver pairs
 
Mar 19, 2019 at 12:37 AM Post #4,193 of 12,035
I'm asking what the problem that has been brought up is.

The purported problem is variation between units however it basically all boils down to the reports and perspective of a single person in Singapore last November. In no way shape or form has sufficient data been collected (either in the form of measurements, samples or anecdotal reports from different people who have heard the thing) to claim it is an actual problem. In my opinion if this was an actual issue it would have trickled up from people who own the unit by this time, and to make posts online about it as though it is known issue that needs dealing with is irresponsible at best and malicious at worst.
 
Mar 19, 2019 at 12:43 AM Post #4,194 of 12,035
The purported problem is variation between units however it basically all boils down to the reports and perspective of a single person in Singapore last November. In no way shape or form has sufficient data been collected (either in the form of measurements, samples or anecdotal reports from different people who have heard the thing) to claim it is an actual problem. In my opinion if this was an actual issue it would have trickled up from people who own the unit by this time, and to make posts online about it as though it is known issue that needs dealing with is irresponsible at best and malicious at worst.
Multiple others in Singapore have also heard differences between different units at the several different stores that carry the Solaris. Actually, I think someone earlier in this thread suggested that a Singaporean conspiracy to shill Sony was happening during the height of the drama :)

Also, for those just joining: the guy who reported variation between units, crinacle, never partook in this thread's drama, and only replied here when people dragged him into it. He posted about his results in his personal subreddit, someone else unrelated took those results and posted them here, and then things spiraled badly from there.
 
Mar 19, 2019 at 12:44 AM Post #4,195 of 12,035
https://www.reddit.com/r/inearfidelity/comments/a3e169/campfire_solaris/
https://www.reddit.com/r/inearfidelity/comments/a55iwc/campfire_solaris_sample_2/

?

Not sure how people would know variance exists if they just listen to their own pair. So what was the point of talking about channel matching?

Multiple others in Singapore have also heard differences between different units at the several different stores that carry the Solaris. Actually, I think someone earlier in this thread suggested that a Singaporean conspiracy to shill Sony was happening during the height of the drama :)

Also, for those just joining: the guy who reported variation between units, crinacle, never partook in this thread's drama, and only replied here when people dragged him into it. He posted about his results in his personal subreddit, someone else unrelated took those results and posted them here, and then things spiraled badly from there.

From the comments it seemed like this possible issue had already existed and crinacle was trying two pairs accordingly. Actually there is a mention in the first post:

To account for unit variance, I will also be critically listening to a different demo unit in a different audio shop at a later date.
 
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Mar 19, 2019 at 12:50 AM Post #4,196 of 12,035
https://www.reddit.com/r/inearfidelity/comments/a3e169/campfire_solaris/
https://www.reddit.com/r/inearfidelity/comments/a55iwc/campfire_solaris_sample_2/

?

Not sure how people would know variance exists if they just listen to their own pair. So what was the point of talking about channel matching?
Yeah, with how high-end (to put it less bluntly) the Solaris is, there's almost or actually no people who would own multiple units and thus be able to hear unit variance. If I recall, Audeze had some unit variance problems in the past, but even then their full-sized headphones are just a lot more popular (and easy to demo in stores or at meets) than IEMs to the general audiophile community, so it'd make sense that people could hear and measure variation for those. For flagship IEMs, though, people who don't go around trying and measuring them for the community aren't able to report unit variance if it does exist.
 
Mar 19, 2019 at 1:17 AM Post #4,197 of 12,035
Multiple others in Singapore have also heard differences between different units at the several different stores that carry the Solaris.

Well it wouldn't be the first time that after someone prominent brought something up suddenly many others were "hearing it too". The point is that at the very least this is something highly localized to single place and time and with the data available it cannot reasonably be made out that this is an actual ongoing issue that needs dealing with.

Actually, I think someone earlier in this thread suggested that a...conspiracy to shill Sony was happening during the height of the drama

Weirder things have happened.
 
Mar 19, 2019 at 1:32 AM Post #4,198 of 12,035
So enlighten me here, since I’m always interested in learning more about this stuff. Isn’t the variation in the HD800 that @jude brings up in the 40Hz region a different issue completely from the one that the Solaris is being accused of? (Peaks/valleys in different places across the entire 1k-8k range) I do believe that product variation is a thing for all of these products, but to me, it just feels like this is an issue that’s present to different degrees. And again, correct me if I’m wrong :slight_smile:....

Whatever I quoted is specifically what I was responding to. In this case, it was the suggestion that the manufacturer not sending him the target curve is somehow dodging, and/or that discussing channel matching is dodging. I believe Ken Ball described to some degree in a previous post generally how they do matching, and that's about as much process detail as you get from most manufacturers.

My point with the HD800's was showing how the same model of headphone has differing sensitivity from unit to unit (at least at 40 Hz; and at somewhat higher frequencies, too, as evidenced by the harmonic distortion spurs), but it was consistent for both channels per unit. Matching, then, is actually a very important step. It's obviously not the only important step, but it is obviously important.

If you watch what I believe is Tyll's last InnerFidelity video he shows the Klippel system MrSpeakers uses to do multi-parameter driver matching. Others use it, too, but most manufacturers don't publicly discuss their specific procedures and processes in that regard as openly as Dan Clark does in that video.

I was also making the point that with headphones and earphones we can get measurement variations. we measure several seatings and average to get the curve -- that if we saw no variation, we'd simply measure once. Picking a random headphone from Tyll's database -- and looking at the variation in frequency response -- you see things like this (Fig.1 below):

Innerfidelity-FR-RAW-variance.jpg

(Above) Fig.1 Example of frequency response variance of the same headphone from different seatings, from InnerFidelity (https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK240Monitor.pdf)

That's the same headphone, being measured by Tyll Hertsens, on the same fixture, and probably in the same measurement session.

In addition to stellar driver matching by Sennheiser, another thing that makes the Sennheiser HD800 easier to get consistent measurements with is its shallow, firm earpad design. The HD800/HD800S earpads do not compress/deflect like super plush earpads can, making very consistent measurement positioning and repeatability -- and achieving symmetry of both channels during the seating process -- far easier than with headphones that have thick, soft, squishy earpads.

Different IEM designs measure more (or less) consistently, too, in my experience. For IEMs, there's going to be some variation, and you're likely to run into it more with some designs than others. For our measurement fixtures, for example, an IEM that fits into the concha and essentially locks into place firmly -- something like, for example, a Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless (Fig.2,3,4 below) -- is much more likely to give more consistent seat-to-seat measurements, in our experience, with the type of human-like GRAS anthropometric pinnae we use here on both fixtures (GRAS 45CA and GRAS 45BB-12). I'll measure the Solaris (and will post results when I do), and I imagine it won't be as consistent from seating to seating (as the Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless), as it's a large-body IEM (Fig.5,6,7,8 below), and there's more room for movement in the ear, even after it's seated -- it just doesn't nestle its entire shape into the ear as completely as the Momentum True Wireless.

All of this, and there are also varying degrees of unit-to-unit variation with any headphone or IEM.

Sennheiser-Momentum-True-Wireless_DSCF7628.jpg

(Above) Fig.2 Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless in GRAS anthropometric pinna.

Sennheiser-Momentum-True-Wireless_DSCF7629.jpg
(Above) Fig.3 Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless in GRAS anthropometric pinna.

Sennheiser-Momentum-True-Wireless_DSCF7631.jpg

(Above) Fig.4 Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless in GRAS anthropometric pinna.

Campfire-Audio-Solaris_DSCF7637.jpg

(Above) Fig.5 Campfire Audio Solaris in GRAS anthropometric pinna.

Campfire-Audio-Solaris_DSCF7638.jpg

(Above) Fig.6 Campfire Audio Solaris in GRAS anthropometric pinna.

Campfire-Audio-Solaris_DSCF7639.jpg

(Above) Fig.7 Campfire Audio Solaris in GRAS anthropometric pinna.

Campfire-Audio-Solaris_DSCF7633.jpg

(Above) Fig.8 Campfire Audio Solaris in GRAS anthropometric pinna.
 

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Mar 19, 2019 at 1:47 AM Post #4,199 of 12,035
Whatever I quoted is specifically what I was responding to. In this case, it was the suggestion that the manufacturer not sending him the target curve is somehow dodging, and/or that discussing channel matching is dodging. I believe Ken Ball described to some degree in a previous post generally how they do matching, and that's about as much process detail as you get from most manufacturers.

My point with the HD800's was showing how the same model of headphone has differing sensitivity from unit to unit (at least at 40 Hz; and at somewhat higher frequencies, too, as evidenced by the harmonic distortion spurs), but it was consistent for both channels per unit. Matching, then, is actually a very important step. It's obviously not the only important step, but it is obviously important.

If you watch what I believe is Tyll's last InnerFidelity video he shows the Klippel system MrSpeakers uses to do multi-parameter driver matching. Others use it, too, but most manufacturers don't publicly discuss their specific procedures and processes in that regard as openly as Dan Clark does in that video.

I was also making the point that with headphones and earphones we can get measurement variations. we measure several seatings and average to get the curve -- that if we saw no variation, we'd simply measure once. Picking a random headphone from Tyll's database -- and looking at the variation in frequency response -- you see things like this (Fig.1 below):


(Above) Fig.1 Example of frequency response variance of the same headphone from different seatings, from InnerFidelity (https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK240Monitor.pdf)

That's the same headphone, being measured by Tyll Hertsens, on the same fixture, and probably in the same measurement session.

In addition to stellar driver matching by Sennheiser, another thing that makes the Sennheiser HD800 easier to get consistent measurements with is its shallow, firm earpad design. The HD800/HD800S earpads do not compress/deflect like super plush earpads can, making very consistent measurement positioning and repeatability -- and achieving symmetry of both channels during the seating process -- far easier than with headphones that have thick, soft, squishy earpads.

For IEMs, there's going to be some variation, and you're likely to run into it more with some designs than others. For our measurement fixtures, for example, an IEM that fits into the concha and essentially locks into place firmly -- something like, for example, a Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless (Fig.2,3,4 below) -- is much more likely to give more consistent seat-to-seat measurements, in our experience, with the type of human-like GRAS anthropometric pinnae we use here on both fixtures (GRAS 45CA and GRAS 45BB-12). I'll measure the Solaris (and will post results when I do), and I imagine it won't be as consistent from seating to seating (as the Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless), as it's a large-body IEM (Fig.5,6,7,8 below), and there's more room for movement in the ear, even after it's seated -- it just doesn't nestle its entire shape into the ear as completely as the Momentum True Wireless.

All of this, and there are also varying degrees of unit-to-unit variation with any headphone or IEM.


(Above) Fig.2 Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless in GRAS anthropometric pinna.

(Above) Fig.3 Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless in GRAS anthropometric pinna.


(Above) Fig.4 Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless in GRAS anthropometric pinna.


(Above) Fig.5 Campfire Audio Solaris in GRAS anthropometric pinna.


(Above) Fig.6 Campfire Audio Solaris in GRAS anthropometric pinna.


(Above) Fig.7 Campfire Audio Solaris in GRAS anthropometric pinna.


(Above) Fig.8 Campfire Audio Solaris in GRAS anthropometric pinna.

Thanks for the response! I can definitely see how in the case of the anthropometric pinna, you could get variation (especially larger ones like the Solaris).

However, in my past experiences with IEM measurements, something like this
B9EF3C6C-CB12-449E-9109-5ED23BFD1E44.jpeg
(Don’t remember the specific piece of equipment, but you stick the eartip in) was used instead - and there didn’t seem to be an issue with variable fit. (I’m sure that there could be an issue brought up regarding how representative such measurements are, but that’s not the point)

As far as I can tell, the measurements that are causing the debate are from a less sophisticated, but similar device... so I’m not sure if the issue is from an inability to get a consistent fit.
 
Mar 19, 2019 at 9:48 AM Post #4,200 of 12,035
@jude First of all, thank you for your thoughtful contribution to this thread. You provided a lot of interesting information. However, I don't think all of it is relevant here and the non-relevant parts seem to have obscured the relevant ones.

Here are some points I would like to comment on briefly:
1. I think everyone accepts that unit variation is inevitable. This is why tolerances exist: to define how much variation is acceptable. I asked Ken Ball what his tolerances are and he declined to provide them.
2. Almost no one in the industry is providing concrete information on test procedures and test results. Yes, this is not an issue exclusive to Campfire Audio, but everybody can understand that if there was something to brag about, they would be bragging about it. If I was a company who thought that its quality control was exceptional, I certainly wouldn't have a problem with publishing this type of information. In a flooded market, where it's becoming increasingly difficult to separate yourself from the competition, especially in the field of audio, where the type of material that you can easily distribute to your potential customers is not particularly compelling (people cannot hear your IEMs through their computer monitors), such hard data that can be extremely powerful and confidence inspiring. If I can figure this out, I'm sure the industry can as well.
3. All measurements are incorrect. This is true if we're talking in absolute terms. All measurements have a degree of error associated with them. Some errors are random, some are systematic. Some random errors are so large that they can be deemed aberrant. There are ways to identify systematic errors and criteria for defining aberrant errors. We should eliminate these measurements before compiling a result from the remaining ones (e.g. by averaging). You did a much better job than I can in explaining the intricacies of measuring headphones. But measurement variation has nothing to do with unit variation, tolerances and what should be acceptable for the paying customer.

Unfortunately we are just going around in circles here. There are some of use who believe that companies should be more transparent and we sometimes go overboard with shouting this out. There are others who believe the companies are doing the best they can and are perfectly happy with the current situation. And neither camp seems to be convincing the other that they should reconsider, even after all the best arguments have been put forward.
 

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