[diodiel]

are you talking abt the sansui AU-XXX? i gotta find me one of those! and are the G receivers inferior to them or just different?
Quote:

Tell you the truth, its vintage or go home for me. The Sansui intergrateds are very musical amps and ive heard that their nothing like the bigger G receivers.
 

 

 

[ardgedee]

I still have to hear any of the most covetable top-line vintage receivers in fully-restored condition. I'm tempted to track down a high-powered receiver (like Skylab's SX-1980 (edit: fixed)) just for powering the HE-6 through the phone jack, even though it already gets more juice than it needs (and drinks it up happily) from the speaker taps of the receivers I've already got.
 
With my current setup -- high-quality vintage amps, near-TOTL recent-model DAC being fed data from lossless audio files (using BitPerfect to improve the data output from my computer), I suspect I'm wringing all I can out of what I've got, and I'm tempted to stare down the rabbit hole of audiophile tweaks I'm currently skeptical about, like cables and power conditioners . (Please let's not discuss that here. I'll ask a moderator to intervene if the conversation goes in that direction. Even if I agree with your post. Just... don't. If something interesting comes of my curiosity, I'll post elsewhere. If you have to get it off your chest, PM me instead.)
 
So far, the best receivers I have heard still fall short of modern high-end gear in the scale of the soundstaging, in the detail of quiet or complex passages, and the impact of sudden dynamic changes. In the best of circumstances, this gap in performance is small - vintage kit, even at collectors' prices, provides incredible value - but when you've reached the point where cost is no obstacle, you will still have to ante up.

 

[Meewoo]

Quote:

Which Pioneer receiver would the Technics SA-5560 be most like?
Anyone tried this thing?

Here is the big brother SA-5760, The TOTL of Technics 1976.

 
I have other two small Technics receivers and integrate SU-8080. Technics sound OK with analytical sound signature, but they lack the airy, dynamic of Pioneer x50 line. I would say they are little brighter than x50 also. I wouldn't say they are not good, they just don't have their own signature(Or flat response is their signature). They may pair with warm headphone or speakers well.

 

[moodyrn]

Quote:

 
So far, the best receivers I have heard still fall short of modern high-end gear in the scale of the soundstaging, in the detail of quiet or complex passages, and the impact of sudden dynamic changes. In the best of circumstances, this gap in performance is small - vintage kit, even at collectors' prices, provides incredible value - but when you've reached the point where cost is no obstacle, you will still have to ante up.

The problem is, you have to go the high end route to get there which means thousands. With vintage gear, it only takes hundreds. I have a couple of totl receivers and I still have a big smile on my face every time I turn one one. But still, I haven't listened to anything like the sx1980 or others in the "super" monster class. So they might get you right there with modern high end ss gear. But I think many will agree. With vintage gear, you can achieve with hundreds what it will take thousands to do with modern gear. And to go you one better, you can also achieve with tens what it would take hundreds from modern gear. I'm speaking ss of course. On the tube side, there's some very good values today with modern tube gear from budget to highfi. But vintage tube gear is still just as highly regarded, maybe more than ss when you look at what's out there between marantz, fisher, scott, dynaco etc. But on the other hand, you won't find a vintage tube amp in good working condition for 20.00 like you can with vintage ss gear.
 

 

[ardgedee]

Quote:

 But on the other hand, you won't find a vintage tube amp in good working condition for 20.00 like you can with vintage ss gear.
 

(whistles innocently)
 
But yes, I think you've mostly more clearly stated my point than I have. All I've spent on buying and refurbishing four vintage amps (two tubed integrateds, two SS receivers) has been less than the retail price of one respectable mid-fi headphone amp. There's no small amount of luck in scoring the vintage kit that I did, and that luck will be harder to come by as the years pass, and eventually 1970s kit will be old and increasing numbers of it harder to maintain. But much of our vintage gear was kilobuck gear back in the day, if not literally (some of the monster receivers), then at least by accounting for the purchasing power of the dollar over time.
 
At the Detroit meet in June, I was pleased by how close my equipment got to others' kilobuck gear. There was no confusing mine for theirs, and much of theirs was unambiguously better. I harbor no illusions about that. But, short of spending a small multiple of what I've spent so far to upgrade to a monster Sansui or Pioneer receiver, taking the step into high-end exotica and getting equipment specific to my interests and listening habits will require a large multiple of my current investment.

 

[cifani090]

Quote:

are you talking abt the sansui AU-XXX? i gotta find me one of those! and are the G receivers inferior to them or just different?

I  was, but i go vintage everything now.

 
Quote:

I still have to hear any of the most covetable top-line vintage receivers in fully-restored condition. I'm tempted to track down a high-powered receiver (like Skylab's SX-1950) just for powering the HE-6 through the phone jack, even though it already gets more juice than it needs (and drinks it up happily) from the speaker taps of the receivers I've already got.
 
With my current setup -- high-quality vintage amps, near-TOTL recent-model DAC being fed data from lossless audio files (using BitPerfect to improve the data output from my computer), I suspect I'm wringing all I can out of what I've got, and I'm tempted to stare down the rabbit hole of audiophile tweaks I'm currently skeptical about, like cables and power conditioners . (Please let's not discuss that here. I'll ask a moderator to intervene if the conversation goes in that direction. Even if I agree with your post. Just... don't. If something interesting comes of my curiosity, I'll post elsewhere. If you have to get it off your chest, PM me instead.)
 
So far, the best receivers I have heard still fall short of modern high-end gear in the scale of the soundstaging, in the detail of quiet or complex passages, and the impact of sudden dynamic changes. In the best of circumstances, this gap in performance is small - vintage kit, even at collectors' prices, provides incredible value - but when you've reached the point where cost is no obstacle, you will still have to ante up.

 
They dont make 1950's.... i think you mean 1980.
 
Quote:

The problem is, you have to go the high end route to get there which means thousands. With vintage gear, it only takes hundreds. I have a couple of totl receivers and I still have a big smile on my face every time I turn one one. But still, I haven't listened to anything like the sx1980 or others in the "super" monster class. So they might get you right there with modern high end ss gear. But I think many will agree. With vintage gear, you can achieve with hundreds what it will take thousands to do with modern gear. And to go you one better, you can also achieve with tens what it would take hundreds from modern gear. I'm speaking ss of course. On the tube side, there's some very good values today with modern tube gear from budget to highfi. But vintage tube gear is still just as highly regarded, maybe more than ss when you look at what's out there between marantz, fisher, scott, dynaco etc. But on the other hand, you won't find a vintage tube amp in good working condition for 20.00 like you can with vintage ss gear.

Its amazing in the sense that most gear is in the relm of $500, though the big Sansui's can be $1500+ and the 1980's the same.
 

 

[Meewoo]

Quote:

Quote:

(whistles innocently)
 
But yes, I think you've mostly more clearly stated my point than I have. All I've spent on buying and refurbishing four vintage amps (two tubed integrateds, two SS receivers) has been less than the retail price of one respectable mid-fi headphone amp. There's no small amount of luck in scoring the vintage kit that I did, and that luck will be harder to come by as the years pass, and eventually 1970s kit will be old and increasing numbers of it harder to maintain. But much of our vintage gear was kilobuck gear back in the day, if not literally (some of the monster receivers), then at least by accounting for the purchasing power of the dollar over time.
 
At the Detroit meet in June, I was pleased by how close my equipment got to others' kilobuck gear. There was no confusing mine for theirs, and much of theirs was unambiguously better. I harbor no illusions about that. But, short of spending a small multiple of what I've spent so far to upgrade to a monster Sansui or Pioneer receiver, taking the step into high-end exotica and getting equipment specific to my interests and listening habits will require a large multiple of my current investment.

 
I do think you guys are all correct. Until today, the vintage stuff still has great performance price ratio. But as time goes by, the advantage of vintage stuff will decrease.
It all about the value of now or future. If you want to enjoy now, vintage stuff is a good buy. If you want future proof, then modern hi-fi can be a good buy( I assume vintage stuff can't be restored and price won't increase due to people's nostalgic feeling and scarcity). Just my 2-cents.
 
 

 
 

 

[cifani090]

Quote:

Quote:
 
I do think you guys are all correct. Until today, the vintage stuff still has great performance price ratio. But as time goes by, the advantage of vintage stuff will decrease.
It all about the value of now or future. If you want to enjoy now, vintage stuff is a good buy. If you want future proof, then modern hi-fi can be a good buy( I assume vintage stuff can't be restored and price won't increase due to people's nostalgic feeling and scarcity). Just my 2-cents.

Go more in depth on this. Its like saying this 1936 Bugatti Type __ wont be valued anymore because no one wants it. Thanks not true, American will (IMO) never be what it once was, they quality will never be their, and as long at the slave Chinese workers are willing to work at $.50 an hour, that plastic is king, at least not in my world, than people are still going to look into vintage stuff (what we're buying currently) before they start looking at our generation of future vintage goods.
 

 

[moodyrn]

It think the value of high end vintage may decrease over time because in the future they will be harder to come by which will continually drive the prices up. I think eventually unknown gems from the likes of superscope, toshiba, panasonic etc will also increase in price. But again, maybe not. From my reading in audiogon, totl vintages have been going for hundreds for many years now. But one thing is for sure, right now is a very good time to invest in vintage gear. Most of the coveted pieces are still affordable and are always available on ebay. They're more scarce on craiglist, but still attainable. Where I live there's an area population of about 1.4 mil. ISo it's by no means no metropolis, but I still got both my kr9600 and sx1010 from craiglist for a combined 300.00. They both are in pristine condition. Just last week, I narrowly missed out on a sx1050 for 150.00 and sx780 for 50.00. So I'm sure in larger cities there's a much bigger selection to chose from. A lot of these pieces are still easy to find without doing a whole lot of searching. You just have to keep your ears open.

 

[Meewoo]

Quote:

Go more in depth on this. Its like saying this 1936 Bugatti Type __ wont be valued anymore because no one wants it. Thanks not true, American will (IMO) never be what it once was, they quality will never be their, and as long at the slave Chinese workers are willing to work at $.50 an hour, that plastic is king, at least not in my world, than people are still going to look into vintage stuff (what we're buying currently) before they start looking at our generation of future vintage goods.
 

Yes, You are totally right.
I do think there is big difference of design concept between modern and vintage. Vintage stuff is designed to last forever, and most modern BPC are designed to fail outside warranty period. This is how companies make money by marketing useless feature.
But there are elite companies like Krell, McIntosh and other non main stream who still keep produce high quality audio stuff for lasting forever.  
 

 

[cifani090]

Quote:

It think the value of high end vintage may decrease over time because in the future they will be harder to come by which will continually drive the prices up. I think eventually unknown gems from the likes of superscope, toshiba, panasonic etc will also increase in price. But again, maybe not. From my reading in audiogon, totl vintages have been going for hundreds for many years now. But one thing is for sure, right now is a very good time to invest in vintage gear. Most of the coveted pieces are still affordable and are always available on ebay. They're more scarce on craiglist, but still attainable. Where I live there's an area population of about 1.4 mil. ISo it's by no means no metropolis, but I still got both my kr9600 and sx1010 from craiglist for a combined 300.00. They both are in pristine condition. Just last week, I narrowly missed out on a sx1050 for 150.00 and sx780 for 50.00. So I'm sure in larger cities there's a much bigger selection to chose from. A lot of these pieces are still easy to find without doing a whole lot of searching. You just have to keep your ears open.

Nice deal on the Kennie. I miss my KR-9000GX and i need a replacement. Even a big area like Detroit, they are still hard to come by, its almost better to put up a "Wanted" classified to get what you want.
 
Quote:

Yes, You are totally right.
I do think there is big difference of design concept between modern and vintage. Vintage stuff is designed to last forever, and most modern BPC are designed to fail outside warranty period. This is how companies make money by marketing useless feature.
But there are elite companies like Krell, McIntosh and other non main stream who still keep produce high quality audio stuff for lasting forever.  

McIntosh... they will always be a great company, and i think even their stuff right now (besides their clock) will be very collectible in the next few decades, just as their vintage stuff is still very collectible.
 

 

[ardgedee]

Quote:

Go more in depth on this. Its like saying this 1936 Bugatti Type __ wont be valued anymore because no one wants it. Thanks not true, American will (IMO) never be what it once was, they quality will never be their, and as long at the slave Chinese workers are willing to work at $.50 an hour, that plastic is king, at least not in my world, than people are still going to look into vintage stuff (what we're buying currently) before they start looking at our generation of future vintage goods.
 

The truth lies between. Electronics have usually been bad investments in terms of cash value. The market value for my most collectible equipment is still significantly less than the original buyer paid for it.
 
Any equipment bought new now is highly unlikely to be resellable for its original price. There are occasional exceptions, like the Sony R10 headphones, but that's so rare as to be notable.
 
Equipment was generally more expensive back then, too. My Scott 222c was an entry level unit, priced at $150 in 1960 dollars. That is roughly $1,200 in 2011 dollars, in terms of buying power. $1,200 will get you a pretty nice brand-new integrated amp. Or a couple working Scott 222c units.

 

[cifani090]

Quote:

Quote:

The truth lies between. Electronics have usually been bad investments in terms of cash value. The market value for my most collectible equipment is still significantly less than the original buyer paid for it.
 
Any equipment bought new now is highly unlikely to be resellable for its original price. There are occasional exceptions, like the Sony R10 headphones, but that's so rare as to be notable.
 
Equipment was generally more expensive back then, too. My Scott 222c was an entry level unit, priced at $150 in 1960 dollars. That is roughly $1,200 in 2011 dollars, in terms of buying power. $1,200 will get you a pretty nice brand-new integrated amp. Or a couple working Scott 222c units.

Thats true, even nowadays (not sure if it from the bad economy or what...) but i never buy anything new (with exceptions (clothing,etc)). Its kinda funny when people use the calculator to see the influx in price from back than to now. Buy dont you think McIntosh will be worth at least 1.5 of its original cost in 30-60 years?
 

 

[Skylab]

No doubt. Even something like the SX-1980, which commands top dollar today for a vintage receiver, has not held it's value well in dollars adjusted for inflation. You can buy an SX-1980 for roughly what it cost new in 1978-79 - but in adjusted dollars a new one in today's dollars would cost you over $8K. So if you bought one new back in the day, it hasn't held it's value well. And it has held value better than most vintage electronics.

But that is the VERY reason that these items are a good deal to buy today! You get performance above the amount you are spending in many cases.

 

[moodyrn]

X2. Especially when you look at what I paid for my gear. I know bargains like what I came by a few an far between. But even if you shell out the going rate for a totl receiver or amp, you would have to spend many times more on modern gear, not only to best it, but you would have to spend a great deal more just to equal it.