[Btdk34]

Could you detail the difference between the O2 and the Crack?  I understand that the O2 has a very "transparent' solid-state sound, which I am familiar with.  Just curious how the Crack sounds in comparison, especially this "tube magic" you speak of 

 

[adydula]

I spent some time swapping out tubes in several amps and spent some considerable money and time playing and listening....its fun to a point then it gets costly and a real PAIN in the rear to have to change out hot tubes to try to get the sound you think you want with the various recordings etc...
 
Imagine having to sort thru all your thousands of songs / cds etc and group them to be listented to with this set of tubes or that set of tubes?
 
Its absolutley crazy...
 
But hey its your money and to some its a real passion...
 
A.

 

[atomicbob]

  Could you detail the difference between the O2 and the Crack?  I understand that the O2 has a very "transparent' solid-state sound, which I am familiar with.  Just curious how the Crack sounds in comparison, especially this "tube magic" you speak of 

You can read a lot on both sides of the controversy over tube vs solid state all over the internet. To me (warning, my opinions ahead) it boils down to this. In a well executed SS design, the amp is a straight wire with gain. Nothing added, nothing lost. This is very desirable if transparency is the goal, which for music production it should most certainly be top on the list of criteria for monitoring, whether soffit mount, far field, mid field, near field, check mix or headphone check. One needs accuracy to know what to EQ, compress, move track faders etc.
 
For music reproduction the goal may be either accuracy (hear what the engineers heard) or euphonic. The latter represents a system that makes everything sound good. Maybe better than it (the recording) was originally. There are some monitors in some studios that have this effect which allows less than optimal mixes to get out the door. For reproduction this effect may be helpful. It is like seeing the world through rose colored glasses. The Crack with say a Tung-Sol 5998 and an RCA clear-top 12AU7 can have this effect. Everything seems to sound good, like listening to a jazz combo playing in a small club, especially after a few drinks. This is not accurate, but very enjoyable none the less. Albums that are less than stellar when heard on a transparent system may become much more enjoyable on a euphonic one.
 
I have several amps in both camps. They each have their respective strengths and weaknesses. My collection of amps and headphones covering a variety of technical and preferential sound signatures, is nearing completion. I have one or two headphones to go and I am done. As far as amps go, I am done. See my profile for more information. 

 

[Btdk34]

That's a really great explanation, atomicbob.  Thanks!  I'm definitely going to try for the more euphonic sound when I get the chance to upgrade my Fiio combination.

 

[atomicbob]

  That's a really great explanation, atomicbob.  Thanks!  I'm definitely going to try for the more euphonic sound when I get the chance to upgrade my Fiio combination.

In my opinion, it's good to have one of each, transparent and euphonic. These days achieving that goal is reasonably easy with O2 and Crack and an ODAC. The tubes are another story, however. Some of the most coveted tubes are becoming unobtainum or priced above the cost of the entire aforementioned system.

 

[MrEleventy]

In my opinion, it's good to have one of each, transparent and euphonic. These days achieving that goal is reasonably easy with O2 and Crack and an ODAC. The tubes are another story, however. Some of the most coveted tubes are becoming unobtainum or priced above the cost of the entire aforementioned system.

This, and some of said systems require more than 1 of them (I'm talking about your Eddie Current and Manley!). I like the Darkvoice 336/Crack because you don't have to deal with the headache of not only buying a tube but buying a matched pair. I got a TS 5998/Chatham 2399 for what I consider "cheap" @ $85, really tempted to get another for when the one I'm using wears out, but there are good cheap tubes as well. You can get some RCAs 6as7s which will give you nice meaty bass or Sylvanias for that crisp top end for $10-15 shipped. I'll skip the premium tubes, with that kind of cash, I can get a really nice SS amp.

 

[atomicbob]

The EC Zana Deux SE isn't that bad. The driver tube, a single 6SL7, is the only one that really has the majority effect on the sound. I'm an OTL fan which as you can see by the number of OTL amps in my collection. Your $85 Chatham 2399 was a really good deal.

  Having to only buy singles was a major consideration in the OTL amps I selected, opting for the WA3+ rather than the WA2, for example.

 

[MrEleventy]

Do you have any thoughts/impressions on Crack vs WA3+? I was thinking about maybe upgrading to WA3+ because I already have a healthy stock of tubes that it takes, 6080 (aka 6as7s) and 6dj8s. That and someone has it on the FS threads at a price I can dig. If I go Crack, I'd need an adapter to either 6dj8s or 6sn7s. No 12au7s at all.

 

[atomicbob]

Tyll Hertsens has a review of the Crack that includes a comparison to the WA3:
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/marvelously-addictive-bottlehead-crack-page-2
 
My personal experiences pretty much match Tyll's. The 6DJ8 is a higher gain tube than the 12AU7. Certain combinations of 6DJ8 and 6AS7g will result in a little residual hum or faint hiss or both. You need to be in a quiet room to hear the residual noise. My listening space can hit 23 dBA, 30 dBC so I can hear and be annoyed by some combinations in my WA3+. 12AU7 with 6080 is silent in the Crack. Outside of that minor observation, Tyll describes it very well.
 
Additional note: I created a stereo 10K ohm load adapter which plugs into the WA3+ and my headphones plug into the adapter. This lowers any residual hum or hiss below the point where I would notice it, even in the very quiet room. Most listening spaces are not this quiet and the residual amp noise is masked by room noise.

 

[Voohoo]

Nice conversation of SS and tube amps here.
 
If I had a T90 I would like to try it through a Hifiman Ef-5. With a Bifrost if I could afford that too.

 

[MrEleventy]

Tyll Hertsens has a review of the Crack that includes a comparison to the WA3:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/marvelously-addictive-bottlehead-crack-page-2

My personal experiences pretty much match Tyll's. The 6DJ8 is a higher gain tube than the 12AU7. Certain combinations of 6DJ8 and 6AS7g will result in a little residual hum or faint hiss or both. You need to be in a quiet room to hear the residual noise. My listening space can hit 23 dBA, 30 dBC so I can hear and be annoyed by some combinations in my WA3+. 12AU7 with 6080 is silent in the Crack. Outside of that minor observation, Tyll describes it very well.

Additional note: I created a stereo 10K ohm load adapter which plugs into the WA3+ and my headphones plug into the adapter. This lowers any residual hum or hiss below the point where I would notice it, even in the very quiet room. Most listening spaces are not this quiet and the residual amp noise is masked by room noise.

Awesome, thanks for the link.

Hmmm. Interesting, reading the comparisons from Tyll and then Headfonia's comparison of the 336 vs Crack and then using the Crack as a baseline, I think my current amp is actually about par with the WA3 with slight difference in grainy vs refined highs. Might not be worth upgrading to if those were the main differences. Thanks again for the info.

Headfonia : 336/Crack comparison
Highs
336 : more detailed but grainier
Crack : Cleaner but slight roll off

Soundstage
336 : Deeper
Crack : Wider

Sound Signature
336 : Warm but Linear, balanced. Relaxed and laid back
Crack : Neutral with slight mids hump, more upfront presentation

Bass
Even

Tyll : Crack/WA3 Comparison
WA3 : more refined, warm and relaxed, linear
Crack : forward, slight mids hump, upper treble roll off, punchy and controlled

 

[atomicbob]

It really comes down to 6dj8 vs 12au7 vs 6sn7 for the three amps along with some circuit topology differences. I enjoy the slight differences between the WA3+ and the Crack, but if I simply had to live with only one, either would make me happy. Possibly a nod to the Crack for easy mods and the lower gain 12au7. Possibly a nod to the WA3+ for higher gain 6dj8 and build + looks. You are correct that the WA3 would be more of a cross grade to your DarkVoice 336se. The Crack is an educational build and a very enjoyable amp on which to listen.

 

[MrEleventy]

It really comes down to 6dj8 vs 12au7 vs 6sn7 for the three amps along with some circuit topology differences. I enjoy the slight differences between the WA3+ and the Crack, but if I simply had to live with only one, either would make me happy. Possibly a nod to the Crack for easy mods and the lower gain 12au7. Possibly a nod to the WA3+ for higher gain 6dj8 and build + looks. You are correct that the WA3 would be more of a cross grade to your DarkVoice 336se. The Crack is an educational build and a very enjoyable amp on which to listen.

Looks like I've reached the point of diminishing returns on my tube amp. How would you rate the amps that you have/tried? WA7 looks beautiful but at $1K, it's outside of what I'd want to spend. I'd rather spend that much on the hp first and I'm in no hurry to upgrade my T90 at this point.

I wonder if I can take a Darkvoice shell and install a Crack into it.... lol Cracked Voice 336. :veryevil: I want to do a slight mod on the DV336 and that's to change out the cruddy linear pot. I don't understand why Yuking still uses it. The usable range is 7 to 9. After 9, the volume no longer scales, it just takes off. I sit right around 9-10 with the T90. I can do around 11 with the DT880/600 thanks to the higher ohms.

 

[cute]

Anyone recabled these to dual entry, upgraded wire?  These sound very good stock, but the single entry not my favorite.  I have DHC Peptide braided and waiting, can't help but think it would really be a good match.  I have about every DHC wire available, using the DHC Peptide on my DT 880 600 ohm.  Just out of the box today, and with my gears/tube amp, best headphones I have heard by far.  Could live with them with the stock cable, sounds very good, may decide to tinker......would like some feedback.  To my ears all of my DHC cables have improved on the original wire where used, can't imagine how these could sound with the change!  Using jRiver MC with crossfeed and audiophile settings, these are really bringing some new life to my library!
 
Feedback!

 

[atomicbob]

Looks like I've reached the point of diminishing returns on my tube amp. How would you rate the amps that you have/tried? WA7 looks beautiful but at $1K, it's outside of what I'd want to spend. I'd rather spend that much on the hp first and I'm in no hurry to upgrade my T90 at this point.

I wonder if I can take a Darkvoice shell and install a Crack into it.... lol Cracked Voice 336. :veryevil: I want to do a slight mod on the DV336 and that's to change out the cruddy linear pot. I don't understand why Yuking still uses it. The usable range is 7 to 9. After 9, the volume no longer scales, it just takes off. I sit right around 9-10 with the T90. I can do around 11 with the DT880/600 thanks to the higher ohms.

The WA7 is the only transformer output tube amp in my collection. Good transformers are costly these days and Jack has really good transformers in the WA7. It can handle low impedance cans as easily as it does those with high impedance. It fits between the euphonic Crack/WA3 and the transparent V200/O2 amps in my collection, having a sound signature midway between those two extremes. Tube rolling is limited to stock Sovteks and Electro Harmonix. I have both tube sets but have yet to get beyond the Sovteks. T90 does have a special synergy with this amp.

You probably could build the Crack into the DV, though you will have to handle mounting a small socket for the 12AU7 into the hole meant for the larger 6SN7. Would combine a nice look with a great OTL sound. Transformer cutout would also need modification. You certainly would have a one-of-a-kind amp.