Audio-GD Reference 7 - the new flagship DAC

[doobooloo]

Just spent some time comparing the sound of direct connection to the DAC vs through the Mini-Circuits 75ohm splitter, and I can confirm that there are no audible differences. 

 

[ccschua]

Quote:

Shoot, I wrote a lengthy initial impressions message and I accidentally went into Chrome developer/debug mode and the whole thing disappeared... 

 
So, here's a much shorter version. Compared the NFB-1ES with the three Ref series DACs through the Master 5 driving HD-800 headphones.
 
1. Ref 7.1 sounds full, lifelike, with the widest soundstage and great bass texture. Compared to other DACs, this makes me feel like I'm actually at the performance, whereas the others lack the depth and consequently sound like recordings.
2. NFB-1ES and Ref 7 share a similar tone, sounds nasal and compressed in comparison to the Ref 7.1.
3. Surprisingly the old Ref 1 is closer to the Ref 7.1 in tone and therefore things sound more real and natural, but the Ref 7.1 surpasses the Ref 1 in soundstage, bass depth, and overall fullness of sound.
4. NFB-1ES's bass is especially poor compared to the PCM1704 DACs. Quantity wise it is lacking; more importantly, however, it sounds monotonic and uninvolving. There's something odd about the decay, I think, that makes it sound unnatural. On the Ref 7.1, deep contrabass notes or bass drum of orchestras sound very real and lifelike, but on the NFB-1ES, they sound muffled and distant. Then I thought, perhaps on electronic/synthetic music, the NFB-1ES may fare better. Turns out, even with electronic music, the PCM1704 series still outdo the NFB-1ES in terms of impact and smoothness of bass notes.
5. Not much stood out in terms of difference in treble. Not sure if this is because of cheap cabling. The midrange tone and timbre were very apparent, though as mentioned above.
6. Perhaps I thought the "fullness" of sound and the stronger bass response of the Ref 7.1 was from a higher volume output. So, I tried comparing with the Ref 7.1 volume lowered by a notch compared to everything else. However, this did not change my impression of superiority of the Ref 7.1 in tone/timbre, soundstage, and bass depth and texture.
7. So far, I would rank the DACs in the following order: Ref 7.1 > Ref 1 > Ref 7 > NFB-1ES.
 
Sorry, I wish my earlier impressions post survived the web browser disaster...

 
Instead of NFB 1, perhaps a more fair comparison would be NFB 7.

 

[doobooloo]

You're right, if my goal was to compare ESS Sabre vs PCM1074 the NFB-7/7.1 would have been the proper choice. However my goal was to compare the variations among the Ref series DACs and the NFB was just thrown in there since the SPDIF splitter and input selector both had 4 ports.

I actually have been looking for the original Ref 5 for some time and if I had that a comparison of the two NFB's and the Ref 5 would have been very interesting as well.

 

[nigeljames]

Thanks for the time taken and your opinions.
 
I can clearly state that the NFB-7 bass sounds NOTHING like what you describe the NFB1ES sounds like.
 
The power supply plays a big part in Bass performance hence the reason the Ref 1/7 would have much better bass than the NFB1ES regardess as to the actual chip used in the NFB1. Stick some PCM1704 in the NFB1 and the results would probably be the same.
 
I also remember Pacific Valve stating that the NFB1ES and the NFB-7 sound totally different, like from 2 different companies.

 

[RedBull]

I'm very curious on your opinion how come Ref 1 sounds better than Ref 7, as in Ref 7.1 > 1 > 7.
What do you think might causes this?

 

[colour97]

Quote:

The Master 7 couldn't join the party, but here goes!
 

 
From left to right...
 
Phoenix, new version (click buttons and 3 feet)
Phoenix, old version (rotary dials and 4 feet)
On top of the Phoenixes: NFB-1WM
 
Modified Reference 1 with DSP v5 at the bottom
Reference 7 with DSP v5 in the middle
Neko Audio D100 v2 on top
 
DI-DSP with PSU on front
Squeezebox Touch with Enhanced Digital Out (files are all FLAC)
Kramer VS-4X passive quad XLR input selector
Silver box in cable bunch: Mini-circuits ZSC-4-1-75 BNC splitter
 
Reference 7.1 with DSP v5 at the bottom
NFB-1ES on top
 
Master 5 on the far right

---

 
DI-DSP with PSU on front
Squeezebox Touch with Enhanced Digital Out (files are all FLAC)
 
please give a comparison which one you like most.
 
thank you.

 

[.Sup]

I actually have been looking for the original Ref 5 for some time and if I had that a comparison of the two NFB's and the Ref 5 would have been very interesting as well.

I hope you find it. Amazing setup.

 

[doobooloo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by colour97 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
please give a comparison which one you like most.
 
thank you.

 
I haven't had a chance to compare the NFB-1WM with the others, but so far my preference is as follows: Ref 7.1 > Ref 1 > Ref 7 > NFB-1ES.
 
 
 

I'm very curious on your opinion how come Ref 1 sounds better than Ref 7, as in Ref 7.1 > 1 > 7.
What do you think might causes this?

 
Given that the digital stage is very similar and the DSP versions are the same, It must be just a different analog stage and PSU design... Perhaps the Ref 7 is technically better than the Ref 1, but tonally the Ref 1 sounded more natural to me.
 
Actually given how different the various Ref revisions sound, I now really want to try to Ref 8 with the diamond output stage. That might be very interesting!
 
 
 

I hope you find it. Amazing setup.

 
Thank you - I actually recently got an offer from another Head-Fier with a very reasonable offer for a Ref 5 but I had to personally draw a line somewhere for what is a sane number of PCM1704 based Audio-gd DACs a person should have at any given point of time... 

 

[Currawong]

doobooloo: Nice work. Someone else mentioned that Kingwa changed the sound a little between the Ref 7 and 7.1. I'm very pleased with the results from the 7.1 with Audiophilleo 1, Pure Power and Vaunix hub. I can't help wondering if, some day, someone will go the full hog with a Master 7 + maxxed Off Ramp.

 

[doobooloo]

Quote:

Thanks for the time taken and your opinions.
 
I can clearly state that the NFB-7 bass sounds NOTHING like what you describe the NFB1ES sounds like.
 
The power supply plays a big part in Bass performance hence the reason the Ref 1/7 would have much better bass than the NFB1ES regardess as to the actual chip used in the NFB1. Stick some PCM1704 in the NFB1 and the results wuld probably be the same.
 
I also remember Pacific Valve stating that the NFB1ES and the NFB-7 sound totally different, like from 2 different companies.

 
That's very interesting - I'd love to one day compare the NFB-7 with the Ref series gear... 

 
But what's interesting is how I found the tone (especially evident in female vocals) to be similar between the NFB-1 and the Ref 7. Perhaps it's because the two use the same analog output modules?
 
NFB-1:

 
Ref 7:

 
The shielded boxes look very similar to me, although I have no idea what's inside. Perhaps the op-amp analogy makes sense here?
 
As for comparison, the Ref 1 shielded module is significantly larger:

 
And of course, the Ref 7.1 analog circuitry is all soldered directly on board:

 

[doobooloo]

Quote:

doobooloo: Nice work. Someone else mentioned that Kingwa changed the sound a little between the Ref 7 and 7.1. I'm very pleased with the results from the 7.1 with Audiophilleo 1, Pure Power and Vaunix hub. I can't help wondering if, some day, someone will go the full hog with a Master 7 + maxxed Off Ramp.

 
Whatever Kingwa did to change the sound from Ref 7 to Ref 7.1... it was all in the right direction, as far as I am concerned. 

 Although I am surprised how the Ref 1 tonally sounds closer to the Ref 7.1 than the Ref 7... in my early assessment, the Ref 1 upgraded to the DSP v5 is probably the best bang for the buck in the used market in the Audio-gd Reference series lineup.
 
Aaah, the Master 7... maybe once I've scratched all the itchy corners in my brain and have satisfied my curiosities, I'll sell everything and just go with the Master 7. Maybe... maybe... maybe...

 

[RedBull]

And your comparison between Ref. 7.1 vs Master 7 iiisssss? ....

 

[Currawong]

I think Kingwa might have intended the ACSS modules to be upgradable, so they were in detachable boxes, but having the components soldered directly to the board is better for SQ.

 

[aljordan]

Hello,
 
I have a Reference 7 with the V5 DSP-1.  I generally feed it from a music server via a Halide Bridge USB->S/PDIF convertor via the BNC connection on the Ref 7.  I've been playing with the DSP-1 settings a bit and thought I would share my results.
 
Most of my music is 44.1 kHz FLAC files, with some higher sampling rate files.  First of all, bypassing the PLL when using the Halide Bridge does not seem to cause any negative issues and sounds a tiny bit smoother to me.  I tried playing with the oversampling rates and generally prefer the 8X setting.  I also tried playing with the stop band filter setting, and with 44.1 rates the lower settings sounded more tube-like (I guess) but also added a degree of softness that was sometimes a detriment to well recorded music.  However, many computer based software packages now include some high quality upsampling algorithms.  I set J-River to up-sample everything to 88.2 kHz, I now I am really enjoying the 50dB stop band setting.  The resulting sound is very smooth and natural.  I haven't tried changing the dither setting.  Please note that I don't rely in source components to tweak the overall balance of my system, but instead use a room correction target curve.
 
I would be interested to know others results of playing with the DSP-1 settings.
 
Thanks,
Alan

 

[tme110]

Quote:

 
Whatever Kingwa did to change the sound from Ref 7 to Ref 7.1... it was all in the right direction, as far as I am concerned. 

 Although I am surprised how the Ref 1 tonally sounds closer to the Ref 7.1 than the Ref 7... in my early assessment, the Ref 1 upgraded to the DSP v5 is probably the best bang for the buck in the used market in the Audio-gd Reference series lineup.
 
Aaah, the Master 7... maybe once I've scratched all the itchy corners in my brain and have satisfied my curiosities, I'll sell everything and just go with the Master 7. Maybe... maybe... maybe...

 Have you been volume matching?  I just got the ref5.32 and it is slightly hotter than every other source I have (including my collection of other AGD DACs) so there's basically no way I can compare it with anything because on an A/B check it will always win and volume matching takes too much work.