[IPodPJ]

If you think cables make a difference with S/PDIF, try experimenting with different cable lengths on I2S.  They make even more of a difference from what I've been told.  2/3 foot, 1 foot, 2 feet, 3 feet... all sound very different.  Until I2S becomes a universal standard and all transports will work with all DACs, and different cable lengths don't alter the sound to a great degree than S/PDIF, it's pointless.
 
Think about all the additional circuitry the signal has to pass through because you have to use special receiver and transmitter boards.

 

[Nada]

Quote:

......  Until I2S becomes a universal standard and all transports will work with all DACs, and different cable lengths don't alter the sound to a great degree than S/PDIF, it's pointless....

I thought I2S is the universal standard feed into the actual  DA chips but that it is not designed for inter-chassis transmission? The idea then is do a USB feed straight into the DAC so no I2S cables are actually needed.
 
When a specially designed board for the REF7 is made that allows asynchonous USB input that feeds the PSM1704 chips directly with I2S via a great clock, then a whole lot of SPDIF cables/processing and boards will be bypassed. This would allow a REF7USB model with only USB input for those with computer audio needs.
 
Think about the SPDIF processing in the current REF7. Isnt there a SPDIF receiver and then the DSP-1 with ll its processing  just trying to clean up the SPDIF input and chuck out a descent recovered I2S signal? Imagine the inherently compromised SPDIF processing simply being entirely removed.
 
If the sound doesn't improve in clarity I think it would be surprising.

 

[IPodPJ]

Quote:

I thought I2S is the universal standard feed into the actual  DA chips but that it is not designed for inter-chassis transmission? The idea then is do a USB feed straight into the DAC so no I2S cables are actually needed.
 
When a specially designed board for the REF7 is made that allows asynchonous USB input that feeds the PSM1704 chips directly with I2S via a great clock, then a whole lot of SPDIF cables/processing and boards will be bypassed. This would allow a REF7USB model with only USB input for those with computer audio needs.
 
Think about the SPDIF processing in the current REF7. Isnt there a SPDIF receiver and then the DSP-1 with ll its processing  just trying to clean up the SPDIF input and chuck out a descent recovered I2S signal? Imagine the inherently compromised SPDIF processing simply being entirely removed.
 
If the sound doesn't improve in clarity I think it would be surprising.

That is correct.  I2S (or Interchip signal) was designed as communication between chips, not between chassis.  As I stated previously, if done with USB and the I2S is decoded at the receiving end inside the DAC then it's fine, and the proper way to use I2S.  But I don't think that's what is being discussed between BigMac and Audio-gd.  They are looking to connect I2S via two chassis either using a DIN or an HDMI cable, from what I can tell.  When you do that, varying cable lengths will have a much greater affect on the SQ than even comparing a cheap S/PDIF cable to a well made one -- which is what I've been told from the company who modified my Transporter, as they have experimented with various implementations of I2S and always found it to fall short unless it was being done via USB and decoded at the receiving end inside the DAC.
 
The RE7 sound quality has proven to vary dramatically between DSP-1 module versions, and that should be stabilized before they jump into I2S transmission in my opinion.  Not everyone is or will be using an Audio-gd transport, and if adding I2S will in any way compromise the quality of S/PDIF or AES/EBU then it should not be done.
 

 

[sokolov91]

Quote:

That is correct.  I2S (or Interchip signal) was designed as communication between chips, not between chassis.  As I stated previously, if done with USB and the I2S is decoded at the receiving end inside the DAC then it's fine, and the proper way to use I2S.  But I don't think that's what is being discussed between BigMac and Audio-gd.  They are looking to connect I2S via two chassis either using a DIN or an HDMI cable, from what I can tell.  When you do that, varying cable lengths will have a much greater affect on the SQ than even comparing a cheap S/PDIF cable to a well made one -- which is what I've been told from the company who modified my Transporter, as they have experimented with various implementations of I2S and always found it to fall short unless it was being done via USB and decoded at the receiving end inside the DAC.
 
The RE7 sound quality has proven to vary dramatically between DSP-1 module versions, and that should be stabilized before they jump into I2S transmission in my opinion.  Not everyone is or will be using an Audio-gd transport, and if adding I2S will in any way compromise the quality of S/PDIF or AES/EBU then it should not be done.
 

If you counter that with the sound logic that no cable(s) will significantly impact sonics ( copious lengths, very high impedance obviously not included) then I2S is fine... and so are other cables.
 
If a certain cable or signal approach causes you significant anxiety then avoid it I suppose. Other than that both methods are equally valid until something/someone can prove/demonstrate in a repeatable fashion I2S degrades significantly when used as an inter-chasis medium, or that eliminating SPDIF chips and ETC actually benefits sonics.
 
Seems to me though that eliminating electronics would be a great thing so I2S could really be the bees knees but until people stop using stupid connectors, or proprietary one it is a lose lose situation for the consumer.
 
Also, I think any company's statements towards cables are just as valid as anyone else trying to sell you their products... even class acts like Jan Meier, Kingwa have to make money at the end of the day and cables are a very easy way to do so (too easy). They make money by "properly addressing peoples needs"... so if people have a need they supply something. And I mean this is the best possible way with respect to Jan and Kingwa... they are some of best with regards to snake oil in the business. Well, for those who have not completely cut it out of their practice.
 
Were I a less honest person I would probably have quit school and started up a cable company a while ago. There are few other legal was to make big money fast like that for the average Joe.
 
Either way, the Ref - 7 sounds pretty damned good no matter what you feed it... as it should.
 
My Xonar STX, oppo universal, and PS3 all sound sublime when I use them with the Ref - 7. RCA to BNC, RCA to RCA, or optical, they all sound great. And it might make sense if you consider they are all supposedly de-jittered to 50ps if my understanding is correct.
 
 

 

[Happy Camper]

The makers are trying every way they can to force the consumer to purchase more of their product. Proprietary plugs, converter boxes, etc. are gimmicks they can get away with since there are no standard potocols for this method of conversion. 
 
When a proper implemented I2S system is done right (agree, receiving/converting has to be done at the input of the DAC chip), we will see the quality differences between DACs shrink. After all, they are all using the same DAC chip(s).

 

[Pricklely Peete]

My investigations have run into a snag.....nevermind (I found a partial data sheet, just the pin out for it, the MT1389DE IC). Way easier than 2 months ago...sigh.
 
Peete.

 

[IPodPJ]

My Ref7.1 was finished being built on April 16 and is undergoing a 10 day testing cycle at Audio-gd.  So if all goes well it will ship out on the 26th.
Here are some pictures I asked Edwin to send me of the internals.  I don't know how recent the pictures of the RE7.1 on the Audio-gd site are; maybe some changes were made to the design, I don't know, but these pictures are about as recent as you can get.
 
The blue wire you see is what I had sent to them, which is Neotech 24awg OCC silver cryo'd wire in teflon, and it doesn't get much better than that conductivity-wise.  In the past I have preferred OCC copper wire, but this time I decided to go with silver to squeeze every last ounce of detail out of the unit.
 
I'm certainly looking forward to getting my new DAC.  When I get it I will post initial impressions but please don't expect anything firm for at least a few weeks.  A lot will have changed in my system since the last time I had the RE7 so it won't be an apples to apples comparison, but I had the RE7 long enough to know what it contributes to the system so I hope to have a pretty good handle on it.  I had my new amp only for a little while before I sold the RE7, but my PS Audio PPP went bad and fried a bunch of stuff in my Transporter, so without those two pieces I was using a Mac Mini as a transport.  By the time I get the RE7.1 I should have my repaired Transporter back (which will now be using 2 torroids instead of the 1 R-Core, and the cheap 1.5VA stock trafos have been removed), plus I have a new PS Audio Power Plant P5 here waiting to get some use.
 
Edit:  Why don't they listen?  I told Edwin so many times to which he acknowledged not to wire the RCA jack on the RCA/BNC combo input to the PCB.  They need to remove it.
 

 
 

 

[sokolov91]

Quote:

My Ref7.1 was finished being built on April 16 and is undergoing a 10 day testing cycle at Audio-gd.  So if all goes well it will ship out on the 26th.
Here are some pictures I asked Edwin to send me of the internals.  I don't know how recent the pictures of the RE7.1 on the Audio-gd site are; maybe some changes were made to the design, I don't know, but these pictures are about as recent as you can get.
 
The blue wire you see is what I had sent to them, which is Neotech 24awg OCC silver cryo'd wire in teflon, and it doesn't get much better than that conductivity-wise.  In the past I have preferred OCC copper wire, but this time I decided to go with silver to squeeze every last ounce of detail out of the unit.
 
I'm certainly looking forward to getting my new DAC.  When I get it I will post initial impressions but please don't expect anything firm for at least a few weeks.  A lot will have changed in my system since the last time I had the RE7 so it won't be an apples to apples comparison, but I had the RE7 long enough to know what it contributes to the system so I hope to have a pretty good handle on it.  I had my new amp only for a little while before I sold the RE7, but my PS Audio PPP went bad and fried a bunch of stuff in my Transporter, so without those two pieces I was using a Mac Mini as a transport.  By the time I get the RE7.1 I should have my repaired Transporter back (which will now be using 2 torroids instead of the 1 R-Core, and the cheap 1.5VA stock trafos have been removed), plus I have a new PS Audio Power Plant P5 here waiting to get some use.
 
Edit:  Why don't they listen?  I told Edwin so many times to which he acknowledged not to wire the RCA jack on the RCA/BNC combo input to the PCB.  They need to remove it.
 
 
 
 
 

scissors are your friend.
 

 

[IPodPJ]

Quote:

scissors are your friend.

Yeah well I'm going to have to do that because now Edwin said Kingwa said that they won't correct the problem until they finish all the other gear in house first, when I've been waiting a long time for my DAC.  After changing the date on me 3 times (which if you've read the other 3 or 4 threads here you will see is a very common problem that many members here are having, and Kingwa admitted Edwin was lying to people) and promising to ship on the 26th now they say they are going to make me wait longer just to remove some wires when they didn't install the wire properly to my specifications in the first place?  I really can't believe this is the same Audio-gd.
 

 

[Kingwa]

There are some customers asked we build the custom order like replace the wires, replace the sockets.
Some of them which is quite difficult, we need spend 2X times or more work time to build for customers.
 
But we have not charge a high price for the custom order.
But the custom order is one of some reasons cause our efficiency degrade and produce delay.
 
We are welcome the customers place the custom order ,we like to do our best make you happy but now the delay shipping already made a lot customers unhappy.
 
 
 

 

[IPodPJ]

Kingwa,
Edwin already showed me pictures of the DAC which you can see here.  My DAC is already done with my SILVER WIRE and will finish testing process on April 26.  Please ship it out to me on April 26.  I will remove the wires myself that were not supposed to me hooked up.  I just want my DAC already.  I sold my RE7 because Edwin told me my RE7.1 would ship out on April 10.  If I knew there would be these problems I would have never sold my RE7.  So just ship out my DAC in a few days to me and I'll remove the bad wires myself.
 
I don't know why it is so hard to remove two wires though.  It is not my fault they were installed incorrectly.  I told Edwin at least 4 times not to wire up RCA jack to PCB on BNC/RCA combo input.
 
Philip
 

 

[Denys]

 
Quote:

Kingwa,
Edwin already showed me pictures of the DAC which you can see here.  My DAC is already done with my SILVER WIRE and will finish testing process on April 26.  Please ship it out to me on April 26.  I will remove the wires myself that were not supposed to me hooked up.  I just want my DAC already.  I sold my RE7 because Edwin told me my RE7.1 would ship out on April 10.  If I knew there would be these problems I would have never sold my RE7.  So just ship out my DAC in a few days to me and I'll remove the bad wires myself.
 
I don't know why it is so hard to remove two wires though.  It is not my fault they were installed incorrectly.  I told Edwin at least 4 times not to wire up RCA jack to PCB on BNC/RCA combo input.
 
Philip
 

Sorry but......do we need to know that ? I don't get it....
 
When I had to deal with Audio GD for any reason, I wrote to Kingwa... not to the Head-Fi community !!! I don't see what this post brings to us....
 
Or is there something I am missing ?
 
Denys
 
 

 

[FauDrei]

Bad wires?!? Sooo dramatic...

 
A-GD is having severe company grow-up problems. If you consider their non-capitalistic environment, their "gear for people" philosophy with their VfM factor - you might be more Zen towards them at this time.
 
Then again, no one stops you from carrying on with "itsmyGDmoneyandiwantmyGDproductrightnow" western attitude... it surely keeps the thread alive.

 

[K3cT]

Maybe Audio-gd should refuse to make custom orders then? It makes perfect sense to me.

 

[IPodPJ]

Quote:

Bad wires?!? Sooo dramatic...

 
A-GD is having severe company grow-up problems. If you consider their non-capitalistic environment, their "gear for people" philosophy with their VfM factor - you might be more Zen towards them at this time.
 
Then again, no one stops you from carrying on with "itsmyGDmoneyandiwantmyGDproductrightnow" western attitude... it surely keeps the thread alive.

 
FauDrei,
I am extremely patient when it comes to this hobby.  I haven't had a fully working headphone system in about 21 months.  So patience isn't the issue.  The issue is being lied to.  Perhaps you should go mozy on and read the other 4 threads circulating around Head-Fi to see what's been going on.
 
Denys,
That would be all well and good and I've obviously tried that, except here is the only place Kingwa responds to now.  You can't reach him by e-mail anymore.  You only get Edwin.