[gregdee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drosera /img/forum/go_quote.gif DSP processing is nice, but it's kinda like being greatful that a broken leg has healed nicely: it's always better not to break the leg in the first place. The reclocking feature does do a lot to repair the damage of jitter, but probably can't repair all of the damage done. Moreover, there are lots of different kinds of jitter and the DSP can't mend them all. But the real bottom-line is, even though that difference between a low-grade and a high-grade transport may be small, it is an important difference at the level of performance that the Reference One offers. So if you want to get the most out of the DAC, a good transport is still necessary. But it is nice to know that you are able to hear quite a lot of the performance of the DAC, even when using a very simple transport.

you right Dro

to many independent variables
to blame just old poor jitter

greg

 

[gregdee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by les_garten /img/forum/go_quote.gif You are of course correct. The REF1 has no knowledge of what is connected to the back of the box. They are COAX headers, period. What it does "know" is the characteristics of the signal it is receiving. RCA, even though it is supposed to be 75 ohms, never is in practice. BNC, if it is done correctly with the right connector, the right cable, and the right termination, is 75 ohms. This "accuracy" of the signal being presented is supposed to elicit a lot less jitter than RCA. .

Hi Les

this a real wisdom what you said here
and apparently true.

After all measurement I done hardly any digital rca was 75ohm.
But must say here ,for these which like to know - Stealth REALLY IS !!!
THAT'S WHY I KEPT IT .

greg

 

[Currawong]

Gregdee: To multiquote: Click on the multiquote button

on each post you wish to quote, then click on "Post Reply". All the posts you've selected, even if you've changed threads or pages, will be in your reply to quote.

I wonder what exactly it means when it says that the digital data runs "in parallel". I wonder if this is anything like asyncronous input used for USB input in some DACs (where the DAC is the master clock).

 

[gregdee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi Les, Good job on the BNC panel....I finally got around to pulling the RE1 and trying it with the Computer/C2C head fi system (RCA COAX from the Prelude dig out, I'm thinking about doing the same thing you did as the header for SDPIF out on the Auzen PCI card is easy to get at) but my main issue with comp listening is background noise...the fans etc...it simply is way way too loud to enjoy without cranking the vol on the C-2C which I don't like to do. The comp noise is unacceptable for late night low vol listening...kills the soft and delicate passages with ther excessive fan noise...plus I know it's there which in itself is enough for me to reach for the main rig silent system. So it looks like I'll need to build a silent music server at some point down the road...I certainly have enough parts laying around to build one. I just need the proper case (like an ATX full size desktop type that could slide into the hifi rack). Having this first go around with the C2C being fed by the RE1 it's easy to hear the big jump in quality over the Compass DAC section, OTOH the Compass DAC section does a really good job. That being said the RE1 is clearly in another league than the Compass DAC and so it should be. Anyway I now just have a little under 1K hours on the RE1 and for this particular evenings Comp listening I set it back to 8X over sample (stock settings). I just love this dac and can't imagine other dac's bringing much more to the table than this one does (price be damned). I'll test it with the BNC ---> BNC Vanguard Transport a little later one this evening or tomorrow since it's getting a little late here ATM. Zanth : Wow that's good news about the unit shipping early in May...your in for a treat that is for sure. Les : Any thoughts on the RE1/DV337SE combination ? Peete.

Hi Peete

You just took it out of my mouth >
Pc is simply to noisy and too bulky for auditioning listening room.
As I like night listening sessions I can't accept volume up to dump funs
and get back what had been lost in their noisy aura

100% agree with you
looks like we are both owls either
than skylarks ,but with sound I like fly high
whatever part of a day is

greg

 

[gregdee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Gregdee: To multiquote: Click on the multiquote button on each post you wish to quote, then click on "Post Reply". All the posts you've selected, even if you've changed threads or pages, will be in your reply to quote. txs Curra still learning next time gonna be better greg I wonder what exactly it means when it says that the digital data runs "in parallel". I wonder if this is anything like asyncronous input used for USB input in some DACs (where the DAC is the master clock).

that means that both channel are perfectly separated and streams run parallel to the outputs to avoid interferences between them.parallel signals are syncronous by the nature ,so asyncronous is right opposite and means serial data stream .pararllel is better with long distance signal transmission
( theoreticly),
but also much expensive to built with care about avoiding cross talk.

that's what I know about
but I had been teached this a long time ago in the school ,
so not sure about newest designs.

regs
greg

 

[gregdee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete /img/forum/go_quote.gif Logic dictates that a difference should not exist (given bit perfect) but every time I compare the SC/Comp vs a dedicated transport (the CDM12 Pro ) the CDM12 Pro sounds clearly better in terms of stage depth, bass retrieval, tighter midrange focus, slightly more natural high frequency response etc...I expect the CD7 T to be even more refined than the CDM12 Pro but that remains to be seen until I can actually test it in house. Peete.

hi Peete

I had a break here for a moment ,
but what you have written is what I heard and feel as well.
That's why I am strongly admiring transport.
I understand that looking for bargain is tempting like a hell.
Do the same ,really ,as far as I am not forced to sacrifice a sound I like.

I have over 5k cds and ripping them is a nightmare and slow pain,but still in progress.I do it just for opportunity to have my stuff when traveling.
I am not thinking about selling my discs out ,as do not believe that even 5 back ups will help when **** will happen + 5 times 8 GB is still costly ,isn't it?

There is too much rare music on and white crow recordings to risk I never will get it back when my set up eventually will go south.

Anyway ripping is a full time job as well
and a time is money ,maybe not so much for teenagers
but for me it does a matter.

cheers
hear you soon

greg

ps.Peete

if you'll replace 12 pro with current pro2 you will get massive improvement ,I did it and it was best thing to do.
further deal is replacing master clock .

I set up LC clock ,with separate PS
and for 500$ in result I have 2 levels better machine if not more,
no reason to buy new one if you can make you old better for fraction of price ,plus huge lost on selling out.

ps2.I am interested to know that's a true about CD7T as well.
however this unit use inexpensive transport unit ,which is multi format kind ,with dvd option switched off.
I've just asked Kingwa about that ,due to I was interested to got another quality T with ability to read DVD's ,about possibility to eventually keep it switched if possible .He answered to me it is must be off due to strong cd sound affection.

So,difficult to say.
On the other hand I stil have my multiplayer from sony DVP-S9000ES (diferent unit,reading SACD as well )which as basic was not worth a money ,but I got it used and followed audiomod upgrs to put it up.And now it's not bad at all.
I use it only for DVD/SACD ,course M2pro is still a big margin better on the CD ,but not so bad if compare with same recordings realized as SACD.
Well it's good enough for , the many people use it moded as a only drive in system and ,with no claim at all ,for the money.

 

[drumstick]

Hey Currawong,

noticed that you have replaced your previous Audiotrack Prodigy Cube->coax to a Cryoparts PCLink II -> optical. Any difference in the SQ?

Also, will this type of conversion from a laptop/PC be a bottleneck?

 

[Telstar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsmith /img/forum/go_quote.gif My mobo can't do as high resolution as my X-prelude. Currently I have it set at 44.1hz, 16-bit, which is fine for me because I have no source files that are higher than that. I do plan on getting some 96/24 files in the future, in which case I will probably replace the X-prelude with something else that isn't broken. With respect to noise, since the coax out is digital I would not expect there would be any machine noise with either the mobo or sound card. I certainly have not heard any machine noise with either. It seems to me that if both are set as bit perfect, there shouldn't be any difference in sound quality between the two (except possibly for jitter or sample rate differences).

Coax transfer a LOT of the noise from the computer itself. It is hard to measure with the ears, some machine should be used. That is the reason why some people prefer toslink, which has other disadvantages.

The most immune to EM/RF noise is ST, but is nowhere to be found in soundcards, then toslink (which has other problems as i said).

If we talk instead jitter (which doesnt seem very crucial with the ref1, as well with the sabre), from bes to worst we have:
i2s > bnc > aes/ebu > coax(rca) > toslink
(not sure where to put ST here).

 

[bobsmith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telstar /img/forum/go_quote.gif Coax transfer a LOT of the noise from the computer itself. It is hard to measure with the ears, some machine should be used.

Do you have a link/citation to the data for that? I am very interested to see, as I do not fully understand on a technical level how machine noise could get encoded into the digital signal. Thanks.

 

[Telstar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsmith /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you are getting worse sound from your computer, that indicates to me one of four possibilities: 1) the flac files are not in fact identical to the disc, which could happen if some sort of digital processing was applied when the files were ripped from the disc, 2) your media player is applying digital processing to the files before outputting it to the sound card, 3) the sound card is not set to bit perfect mode, and is doing some sort of processing on the signal, or 4) the sound card is faulty. Just my 2c.

5) the EM and RF interferences from your computer.

 

[Telstar]

PS: not only, but different software players, which all output bit-perfect, do sound different. Can you explain why?
I cant but, having heard this with my ears (several A/B tests), i believe it's true.

About data, unfortunately I dont have. Nobody measured internal soundcards connected to external dacs in a scientific way.
I saw only one spectrogram and that was using analog out, and was amazingly bad.

The fact that in the coaxial specifics there is no mention about shielding noise is a signal that is lacking. I have met a few designers of highend dacs (using firewire btw) and they do galvanically isolate the signal from the point it's converted, to isolate the high-sensitive circuits in the DAC themselves.

It is obvious that if we are using mid-fi equipment, the differences can be masked by other kind of distorsion.

 

[Telstar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by les_garten /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi, I had looked at that card, but they didn't list Vista drivers so was off my list. It did look interesting. I use Vista 64 so I don't take a chance with immature drivers on my immature OS. Vista is awesome for Music though, when everything works, that is.

True. I also prefer Vista. x64 only because of memory allocation. Otherwise I would still go with x32 for a dedicated pc. Some software do not work or work bad on Vista x64 still.

For what is worth, I'm also evaluating windows7 and it does not improve the soundstack, at least until build 7077.

That soundscape card is interesting, if paired with a i2s capable DAC. Jitter will be reduced approx 100-1000 times res4pect spdif (the better figure is bnc, and i'm accounting the intrinsic jitter of the spdif receiver in the DAC which is 50ps+).

 

[bobsmith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telstar /img/forum/go_quote.gif PS: not only, but different software players, which all output bit-perfect, do sound different. Can you explain why? I cant but, having heard this with my ears (several A/B tests), i believe it's true.

Well, without knowing exactly what software you tested, how it was configured, how the drivers were setup etc, no I cannot explain why. But, if you heard differences between software players on the same PC, the players were almost certainly not actually outputting bit-perfect audio (almost by definition).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telstar /img/forum/go_quote.gif About data, unfortunately I dont have. Nobody measured internal soundcards connected to external dacs in a scientific way. I saw only one spectrogram and that was using analog out, and was amazingly bad.

Measurements on analog out are not helpful. Obviously an analog signal from a PC sound card will be filled with machine noise from the PC. But, I see no reason why a digital signal should have the same problem.

I am also a bit confused by your statement that you have no data. In your reply to me, you said that the noise "is hard to measure with the ears" so a machine must be used. You then say you no one has measured it. So, if the noise cannot be heard with ears, and if no one has used a machine to measure it, what makes you so sure it exists?

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Bob,

You are forgetting that not all ASIO drivers are created equal.....the ASIO driver for the latest rev Foobar2000 program is vastly inferior in SQ to the Otachan ASIO 6.7 driver used with Media Monkey..I have bit perfect enabled with my Auzen card's native ASIO output driver and yet the SQ difference between those 2 is very marked. That shouldn't be and yet it is.

Try it out for yourself, you'll soon be scratching your head trying to figure why there is a SQ difference...the answer of course is the actual ASIO driver itself and how it interacts with the Media player, the HAL and the SC hardware (native ASIO output).

Telstar is correct about RFI/EMI being a concern.

Peete.

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Hi Greg,

You know I was looking at the latest CDPro2 assembly just a few days ago and wondering if that might be a direct drop in replacement for the CDM12 Pro assembly I have now ? The unit I have is based upon the HIFIDIY.net CDM12 Pro kit but with a few upgrades specified by Pac Valve & Electric.

Where is the best place to buy a CDPro2 assembly Greg ? I have this link but I'm unsure if they sell direct to end users or there is a better place to get them from...DAISy : CD, DVD, SACD applications using Philips technology

If it is a direct drop in I'll do the swap. The clock I have the with CDM12 Pro now is a 1PPM version...the stock unit is 3PPM so I don't need to upgrade that part. I do need to upgrade the power supplies and the digital outputs...I have Kingwas CD/DVD COAX/BNC mod board and his PSU module...the original plan was to install this into the CDM12 pro but the room needed is not available in that half size chassis. I may be able to work something out but it will be a very tight squeeze, of not impossible.

Anyway this conversation is sort of OT. Sorry folks ...

Now for relevant RE1 talk....

I did attempt to feed the RE1 (today) with ripped DVDA stereo tracks...24/96 and it would not play them back whereas the Compass DAC had no trouble at all with the ripped files.

I know Kingwa is working on a solution right now but in the meantime hi rez files do not work with my RE1. Most of my listening is Red Book but I would like to have the option of 24/96 at some point since hi rez files will be available in greater numbers in the future. Hopefully 24/96 might become the new standard (PCM of course).

Peete.