[haloxt]

supercurio is just offering constructive criticism, let's not kill the messenger . I don't know if he's right or wrong and don't have an nfb-12 to test on myself, but let's try to get to the bottom of this without resorting to any insults please.

 

[erjifan]

Oh boy, it amazes me how much people want to squeeze from a $237 gear.

 

[supercurio]

Quote:

Oh boy, it amazes me how much people want to squeeze from a $237 gear.

Hehe don't worry, I would have made the same kind of reports for a $20 usb sound card or any other audio device of any price.
I want to see issues fixed, quality improved, that's what matters to me.

 

[holland]

Hi Kingwa,
 
For alternate configurations, try this.
 
For 44.1KHz mode, try using the apodising filter
 
1) Pin 4 - float, do not attach *or* pull up resistor.  This is the Meridian CD player mode, when doing a pull-up resistor.
2) Pin 22 - pull down resistor
 
For 96KHz/192KHz
 
1) Pin 4 - float, do not attach *OR* pull down resistor.  This is the Ayre mode, when floating.
2) Pin 22 - pull up resistor
 
Use a 3-state toggle switch for Pin 22, and a 3-state toggle switch for Pin 4.  Another option is to not change anything, YMMV.
 
A high frequency roll-off is good, but not too wide for 44.1KHz.  For 96/192KHz, wide is good.  The *best* is 96KHz with linear soft-knee filter or minimum phase soft-knee filter.  I like minimum phase soft-knee if you can upsample.  If not upsampling, I prefer the minimum phase apodising filter.
 
The roll-off is good, it just can't be too wide.
 
Quote:

I don't gree it is a defective product.

At first we design the NFB12 we want to make it different flavor to the NFB11 and I want to make it with smooth sound , and we have mark on our web it is a bit smooth and forgive for source .
It is work on hardware mode, so it is setting is follow the performance request and this is the best setting at 192KHz accept ability .
The table of #577 post, it is so the max oversample setting. The NFB12 want to accept 192KHz oversample so the Pin22 must setting at 1 . Otherwise the NFB12 only can up to 48KHz or 96KHz.
Does anyone had better setting in hardware mode?
LiqTenExp post at #578 just customize setting, in face the USB can accept 96KHz and coaxial/optical can accept 192KHz but he limit USB at 44K and coaxial at 96KHz.
About the high frequency roll off not mean it is a defective product, just read the diagram of #556 I was post, the Simaudio Moon Evolution Andromeda Reference CD player which is a colstly more than USD20K gear, also so the high frequency roll off around -3DB ,does anyone think it is a defective products?
 
The high frequency roll off define sound flavor, it bring a smooth flavor.
But the roll off not mean its sound unneutral, the neutral is depend on the circuits components less coloration, like some tube gears even without roll off at 20KHz but sound tube like (coloration).
For supercurio: If you define the NFB12 is a defective product, please offer the effective evidence.
For LiqTenExp post at #580, addition a MCU can check the oversample rate and setting the Pin22.
But I think a MCU join in not a good idea for this price rang gear. In this price rang gear , the power supply is limit and the size is quite small, the MCU maybe bring more disturb to the sound make the sound quality degrade .

 

 

[Kingwa]

Every design must had a target . It is as everybody had personal character and taste,  anyone can't ask him change his character .
Not every design in world must have a same target, so why in world have a lot different gears and different sound flavor even though applied same chips.
 
Some people like the HD650 for a warmer sound but some will like Denon or AKG, does any one think they must design same sound?
 
In NFB12 we are want to design it is neutral but a bit smooth and forgive which is different to the NFB11. If you want it sound like NFB11, why necessary had the NFB12?
 
The NFB12 sound flavor is just exact follow our design target.

 

[Slaughter]

I have been playing with the sox resampler in foobar tonight. With my test music 48k is superior to 44.1, 88.2 or 96. Not sure what it is, but instruments have a bit better dynamics. So much for graphs and geek speak.

 

[madwolf]

Quote:

Hi Kingwa,
 
For alternate configurations, try this.
 
For 44.1KHz mode, try using the apodising filter
 
1) Pin 4 - float, do not attach *or* pull up resistor.  This is the Meridian CD player mode, when doing a pull-up resistor.
2) Pin 22 - pull down resistor
 
For 96KHz/192KHz
 
1) Pin 4 - float, do not attach *OR* pull down resistor.  This is the Ayre mode, when floating.
2) Pin 22 - pull up resistor
 
Use a 3-state toggle switch for Pin 22, and a 3-state toggle switch for Pin 4.  Another option is to not change anything, YMMV.
 
A high frequency roll-off is good, but not too wide for 44.1KHz.  For 96/192KHz, wide is good.  The *best* is 96KHz with linear soft-knee filter or minimum phase soft-knee filter.  I like minimum phase soft-knee if you can upsample.  If not upsampling, I prefer the minimum phase apodising filter.
 
The roll-off is good, it just can't be too wide.
 
 
 

From the Datasheet of 8741 Page 42
 
At 44khz
pin 4 float is response 4 which is Linear Phase apodising filter 
pin 4 pull up is response 5 minimum phase apodising filter 
 
for 96/192 
Pin 4 float is min phase apodising filter 
pin 4 low is response 1 Linear phase soft knee
 
Did I read the datasheet wrongly or are you confuse ?

 

[holland]

Quote:

From the Datasheet of 8741 Page 42
 
At 44khz
pin 4 float is response 4 which is Linear Phase apodising filter 
pin 4 pull up is response 5 minimum phase apodising filter 
 
for 96/192 
Pin 4 float is min phase apodising filter 
pin 4 low is response 1 Linear phase soft knee
 
Did I read the datasheet wrongly or are you confuse ?

You read it wrong.  For 96/192, pin 4 float is the minimum phase soft knee filter, not apodising which is a narrow band.  It is a time domain filter instead of linear phase.

 

[holland]

Quote:

So much for graphs and geek speak.

And technology would be nowhere without it.  So much for slighting engineering with that comment.

 

[madwolf]

Quote:

Quote:

From the Datasheet of 8741 Page 42
 
At 44khz
pin 4 float is response 4 which is Linear Phase apodising filter 
pin 4 pull up is response 5 minimum phase apodising filter 
 
for 96/192 
Pin 4 float is min phase apodising filter 
pin 4 low is response 1 Linear phase soft knee
 
Did I read the datasheet wrongly or are you confuse ?

You read it wrong.  For 96/192, pin 4 float is the minimum phase soft knee filter, not apodising which is a narrow band.  It is a time domain filter instead of linear phase.

 
Sorry my bad,  ok it should read 
 
 
At 44khz
pin 4 float is response 4 which is Linear Phase apodising filter 
pin 4 pull up is response 5 minimum phase apodising filter 
 
for 96/192 
Pin 4 float is min phase soft knee
pin 4 low is response 1 Linear phase soft knee
 
 This seem that you do not like the "Meridian CD player" mode then.
 
I need to reread your comment many time. It is a bit confusing. Sorry 

 

[Kassem]

How would the NFB-12 compare to the original Compass.  Just wondering if I should look into something newer.

 

[dw1narso]

Quote:

Every design must had a target . It is as everybody had personal character and taste,  anyone can't ask him change his character .
Not every design in world must have a same target, so why in world have a lot different gears and different sound flavor even though applied same chips.
 
Some people like the HD650 for a warmer sound but some will like Denon or AKG, does any one think they must design same sound?
 
In NFB12 we are want to design it is neutral but a bit smooth and forgive which is different to the NFB11. If you want it sound like NFB11, why necessary had the NFB12?
 
The NFB12 sound flavor is just exact follow our design target.

 
Kingwa,
 
I understand that we should respect your design goal.
 
But saying that why I necessary want to had NFB12? It is because I cannot order NFB11 any longer... that could be the same reason for other people that ordering NFB12... If NFB11 is still orderable, I will change my order to NFB11... can I?
 

 

[PPkiller]

which software player are u using? have u tried using foobar and with wasapi?
 
Quote:

Quote:

I don't gree it is a defective product.

At first we design the NFB12 we want to make it different flavor to the NFB11 and I want to make it with smooth sound , and we have mark on our web it is a bit smooth and forgive for source .
It is work on hardware mode, so it is setting is follow the performance request and this is the best setting at 192KHz accept ability .
The table of #577 post, it is so the max oversample setting. The NFB12 want to accept 192KHz oversample so the Pin22 must setting at 1 . Otherwise the NFB12 only can up to 48KHz or 96KHz.
Does anyone had better setting in hardware mode?
LiqTenExp post at #578 just customize setting, in face the USB can accept 96KHz and coaxial/optical can accept 192KHz but he limit USB at 44K and coaxial at 96KHz.
About the high frequency roll off not mean it is a defective product, just read the diagram of #556 I was post, the Simaudio Moon Evolution Andromeda Reference CD player which is a colstly more than USD20K gear, also so the high frequency roll off around -3DB ,does anyone think it is a defective products?
 
The high frequency roll off define sound flavor, it bring a smooth flavor.
But the roll off not mean its sound unneutral, the neutral is depend on the circuits components less coloration, like some tube gears even without roll off at 20KHz but sound tube like (coloration).
For supercurio: If you define the NFB12 is a defective product, please offer the effective evidence.
For LiqTenExp post at #580, addition a MCU can check the oversample rate and setting the Pin22.
But I think a MCU join in not a good idea for this price rang gear. In this price rang gear , the power supply is limit and the size is quite small, the MCU maybe bring more disturb to the sound make the sound quality degrade .

Hi
 
I accept the roll-off is design a choice to smooth the sound by killing the highest frequencies.
What I consider as a defect is something else, it's the sampling artifacts due to a misconfiguration of the DACs:
 
Here is how it appears on previous graphs:
 
On udial:
 

 
 
On the RMAA test file:
 

 
On this graphs, remember that everything that's higher than the center (around 20kHz) is artifacts.

For reference, here is how the first udial should look like: (nothing above 20kHz)
 

 
I would suggest you to try by yourself: http://dl.project-voodoo.org/killer-samples/udial.wav
When playing this file on headphones at moderate/high volume clocked at 44K, you'll hear high frequencies artifacts in the second part of the file.
 
Compare with the NFB-12 clocked at 96 or 192k with a high quality upsampling (or another non-buggy DAC), you'll see the difference.
 
This is the part I consider as a defect. Simply: bug in the implementation. It's hard to hear because of the additionnal roll-off, but it's there.
 
But again, if people's are happy with the sound, I'm perfectly happy for them.
My goal is not to trash a product but show technical deficiencies if any in order to see them fixed in future products or revision of the same product.

 

[Kingwa]

 
Quote:

Quote:

Every design must had a target . It is as everybody had personal character and taste,  anyone can't ask him change his character .
Not every design in world must have a same target, so why in world have a lot different gears and different sound flavor even though applied same chips.
 
Some people like the HD650 for a warmer sound but some will like Denon or AKG, does any one think they must design same sound?
 
In NFB12 we are want to design it is neutral but a bit smooth and forgive which is different to the NFB11. If you want it sound like NFB11, why necessary had the NFB12?
 
The NFB12 sound flavor is just exact follow our design target.

 
Kingwa,
 
I understand that we should respect your design goal.
 
But saying that why I necessary want to had NFB12? It is because I cannot order NFB11 any longer... that could be the same reason for other people that ordering NFB12... If NFB11 is still orderable, I will change my order to NFB11... can I?
 

 The NFB11 was had the USB problems because the ES9018 can't forgive the I2S input.
We addition a PLL for fix the problems.
But after that , we want to buy more PLL chips but there are only few hundreds pcs in whole Chinese market and the price asked for 5X times than normal.
If we place a order to manufacturer , we want to order 10K pcs.
But if some lot customers like the 2X coaxial +1 X optical version NFB11, we are like to cooperate with customers rebuild the NFB11.

 

[Slaughter]

I might be in for one. Since you would have to remove the USB, maybe you could offer a combo deal for those that want the Digital Interface and the NFB-11.
 
Quote:

 
Quote:

Quote:

Every design must had a target . It is as everybody had personal character and taste,  anyone can't ask him change his character .
Not every design in world must have a same target, so why in world have a lot different gears and different sound flavor even though applied same chips.
 
Some people like the HD650 for a warmer sound but some will like Denon or AKG, does any one think they must design same sound?
 
In NFB12 we are want to design it is neutral but a bit smooth and forgive which is different to the NFB11. If you want it sound like NFB11, why necessary had the NFB12?
 
The NFB12 sound flavor is just exact follow our design target.

 
Kingwa,
 
I understand that we should respect your design goal.
 
But saying that why I necessary want to had NFB12? It is because I cannot order NFB11 any longer... that could be the same reason for other people that ordering NFB12... If NFB11 is still orderable, I will change my order to NFB11... can I?
 

 The NFB11 was had the USB problems because the ES9018 can't forgive the I2S input.
We addition a PLL for fix the problems.
But after that , we want to buy more PLL chips but there are only few hundreds pcs in whole Chinese market and the price asked for 5X times than normal.
If we place a order to manufacturer , we want to order 10K pcs.
But if some lot customers like the 2X coaxial +1 X optical version NFB11, we are like to cooperate with customers rebuild the NFB11.