[KMann]

I was referring to the charts on the first page of this thread that have a boost at around 4,5Khz, could you point me to the charts you posted?

I believe you are referring to the measurments made on minDSP EARS, which tends to have an artifact/resonant peak near 4.5kHz and is not real. Which is why I had posted measurements we made on GRAS Kemar (https://cdn.head-fi.org/a/10262463.png) .

We should probably clarify I'm talking about 2D mode here, I'm using LDAC Bluetooth in 96Khz mode from my android. 3D mode from my computer sounds fine without EQ (although I wouldn't mind a little more bass)

People have described these phones as treble forward, and compared to other phones I've used I'm inclined to agree.

I've been looking for a way to make them sound less harsh, I had concluded that it was somewhere in the lower treble/upper mids.

Which preset do you use? Default would be my recommendation without 3D on, followed by Music and Warm if you want it to have less treble energy.

People have described these phones as treble forward, and compared to other phones I've used I'm inclined to agree.

I've been looking for a way to make them sound less harsh, I had concluded that it was somewhere in the lower treble/upper mids.

With the 3Khz cut I described above, music sounds less nasally, cymbals sound more like they should, the soundstage is better separated, Music sounds much more in line with headpones/speakers I've been using for years.

Preferences are what they are and I will never advice change that. The reason for my response was your post made me think you were making the changes based on measurements.

Here's the EQ when using OOYH for

When using HRTFs, especialy convolution based (which Mobius does not use), you will have to compensate /invert the headphone response to avoid a 'double HRTF', so I am not surprised by what you had to do. But Mobius already does that in 3D mode, though we do not overdo it (For all presets except default and flat),

 

[KMann]

I guess I prefer a mostly flat response? I had no idea that people made headphones with such a huge curve. Any idea why?

Speakers are typically measured in an anechoic chamber using a microphone, but headphones cannot be measured that way and are typically measured using an artificial head or HATS system. If you measured speakers at your ear drum, they will likely have a similar weird looking response. I have written about it here: https://www.audeze.com/headphone-measurements

 

[Zenvota]

When using HRTFs, especialy convolution based (which Mobius does not use)

O, I see, could you elaborate on what the Mobius, and I take it Waves, uses?

 

[Deders]

I believe you are referring to the measurments made on minDSP EARS, which tends to have an artifact/resonant peak near 4.5kHz and is not real. Which is why I had posted measurements we made on GRAS Kemar (https://cdn.head-fi.org/a/10262463.png) .

Speakers are typically measured in an anechoic chamber using a microphone, but headphones cannot be measured that way and are typically measured using an artificial head or HATS system. If you measured speakers at your ear drum, they will likely have a similar weird looking response. I have written about it here: https://www.audeze.com/headphone-measurements

These resources are very useful, thank you. I have a few questions if you don't mind?

"At Audeze our goal is producing natural sounding, accurate headphones. Our target frequency response is one that’s flat until about 2kHz and gently slopes down from there. We believe the gentle slope mimics the high-frequency energy from a good floor-standing speaker and compensates for the close proximity of the drivers resulting in a more natural-sounding treble."

Would you say this also applies to the Mobius or were you going for a different approach?

This is similar to what I would expect from a good set of headphones.

"By the time sound waves reach your eardrum their frequency and phase content have been altered and are no longer flat. Frequency response measured at the eardrum is more likely to stay flat up to about 200Hz and gradually increase by about 15-to-20dB, reaching a peak at around 3kHz and then rolling off again as illustrated in the figure below."

Does this mean that the 3Khz peak in the chart you showed me is also not really audiable, like the 4.5Khz peak in the other chart?

Preferences are what they are and I will never advice change that. The reason for my response was your post made me think you were making the changes based on measurements.

I mostly use my ears for analysing audio, and only looked at the charts when I felt that something wasn't quite right. I figured there could have been a variety of reasons.

Might require a burn in period
Sometimes frequencies aren't balanced if headphones aren't properly amplified, so maybe a malfunction somewhere in the amplification stage
Maybe it was designed like that for better 3D sound, or a different sound signature.

Which preset do you use? Default would be my recommendation without 3D on, followed by Music and Warm if you want it to have less treble energy.

I prefer the Warm preset when it is plugged into my computer, but I can't seem to find it when using Bluetooth.so I use Music.
What I'm experiencing is a lot more drastic than the subtle, but very welcome EQ's you have provided.
I might try Default again, but with the 3Khz cut, just to experiment and try to get to the bottom of this.

Overall I'm really enjoying these headphones, I mostly use them for gaming. I had thought that with the 3Khz cut I would be able to use them more for music too, but maybe it's not as simple as that?

 

[SoundHelmet]

The peak is created by the measurments. The measurement system is mimicking the peak that a human ear would create. That kind of peak is expected in uncompensated measurements.

Removing that peak with EQ "should" sound muffled and dull compared to a speaker that measures flat. if you like that, then thats fine but the 3khz peak is a more "neutral" response.

 

[Deders]

The peak is created by the measurments. The measurement system is mimicking the peak that a human ear would create. That kind of peak is expected in uncompensated measurements.

Removing that peak with EQ "should" sound muffled and dull compared to a speaker that measures flat. if you like that, then thats fine but the 3khz peak is a more "neutral" response.

You are absolutely right, thank you. After A/B-ing between these and a pair of Senheiser HD280's and applying the cut to each, and it was better left flat like you say

I even tried a pair of IEM's of eliminate my ears from the equation, and even they sound unexpectedly harsh in the top end tonight.
I've noticed I have times like this. One day high frequencies sound smooth to me, the next day on the same equipment, I'm fiddling with the EQ to get rid of a percieved harshness. (Although those frequencies are different for each device) Maybe tonight isn't the best night for critical listening,

This has definitely been a learning experience. I will have to take more time to get used to the Mobius.

 

[Zenvota]

You are absolutely right, thank you. After A/B-ing between these and a pair of Senheiser HD280's and applying the cut to each, and it was better left flat like you say

I even tried a pair of IEM's of eliminate my ears from the equation, and even they sound unexpectedly harsh in the top end tonight.
I've noticed I have times like this. One day high frequencies sound smooth to me, the next day on the same equipment, I'm fiddling with the EQ to get rid of a percieved harshness. (Although those frequencies are different for each device) Maybe tonight isn't the best night for critical listening,

This has definitely been a learning experience. I will have to take more time to get used to the Mobius.

Our ears can get used to a certain sound signature making direct comparisons difficult at times. What sounds balanced at one point sounds muffled at another. As well recordings can be drastically different.

 

[KMann]

O, I see, could you elaborate on what the Mobius, and I take it Waves, uses?

Waves Nx/Mobius uses non FIR based HRTF modeling that is less sensitive to the headphone used (as long as they are close to neutral) but I cannot divulge anything more than that.

Would you say this also applies to the Mobius or were you going for a different approach?

Yes Mobius uses a similar approach. Mobius being an active headphone, we have more freedom to optimize the response but we try not to over do it.

Does this mean that the 3Khz peak in the chart you showed me is also not really audiable, like the 4.5Khz peak in the other chart?

Yes that is correct. Our outer ear act like a funnel and amplifies the 3-4kHz region and we have evolved this way as that region corresponds to vocals which we are most adept at detecting and differentiating. Our brain already applies a compensation so everyone with normal hearing more or less hear the same way in spite of our head and ear geometry being different. This (i.e brain compensating for ear geometry) also helps us design headphones which we feel are neutral sounding and remain confident that a majority of customers would have a similar experience. But if we were to measure the frequency response at the ear drum for different folks, the measurments (especially above 2kHz) can vary quite a bit even though they will all hear more or less the same as thier brain has already compensated for the ear geometry.

 

[Deders]

Waves Nx/Mobius uses non FIR based HRTF modeling that is less sensitive to the headphone used (as long as they are close to neutral) but I cannot divulge anything more than that.


Yes Mobius uses a similar approach. Mobius being an active headphone, we have more freedom to optimize the response but we try not to over do it.


Yes that is correct. Our outer ear act like a funnel and amplifies the 3-4kHz region and we have evolved this way as that region corresponds to vocals which we are most adept at detecting and differentiating. Our brain already applies a compensation so everyone with normal hearing more or less hear the same way in spite of our head and ear geometry being different. This (i.e brain compensating for ear geometry) also helps us design headphones which we feel are neutral sounding and remain confident that a majority of customers would have a similar experience. But if we were to measure the frequency response at the ear drum for different folks, the measurments (especially above 2kHz) can vary quite a bit even though they will all hear more or less the same as thier brain has already compensated for the ear geometry.

Thank you for the detailed and informative response, this is all very helpful. It may go some way to explaining my varied experience.

I had an aneurysm a few years ago, and amongst the lasting effects, sometimes my visual cortex doesn't interpret visual information like I would expect. It's possible that my brain's audio processing is also affected at times, maybe not compensating for the above.

I now recall thinking my receiver had broken one evening when a frequency in the upper mid range seemed much more prominent than it had been, completely changing the sound signature. The next day it was back to normal.

I can't remember the exact frequency, but I had measured it and sent it off to the hifi shop. Maybe they still have a copy.

 

[gtb75]

Has anybody else been running into issues with powering the Mobius on after the firmware update (AudezeMobiusFirmware_v3_2018_11_16)? Ever since I flashed the firmware the initial power up seems to turn on the amps but nothing else. I hear the amps come on because of the noise floor / hiss, but don't get any audio until I power them off and then back on. After I do that I get the "power on" greeting message and they work normally. I tried flashing the firmware again but still have the same issue. Very rarely (maybe 5% of the time) it powers on normally the first time, but most of the time I have to power off / power on. I read through this thread and don't think I saw anyone else with the same issue, so I figured I'd ask and see. I flashed the firmware (V3 - AudezeMobiusFirmware_v3_2018_11_16) from a Windows 10 PC running version the Audeze HQ app (version Beta 1.0 - AudezeHQ_Installer_106). Any suggestions @KMann ?

 

[The Socialist Nerd]

Sound quality is totally off the hook but the short battery life doesn't make this an ideal choice for long music sessions. Going to want to order a LCD-2 closed back headset soon.

 

[acia]

Sound quality is totally off the hook but the short battery life doesn't make this an ideal choice for long music sessions. Going to want to order a LCD-2 closed back headset soon.

I am struggling to find better option, any real world alternative so far?

 

[Zenvota]

I am struggling to find better option, any real world alternative so far?

if you really like the virtualization and want portability than not really, maybe the sxfi but i havent really seen people praising the fidelity. If you can use a pc then a hifi system with a shaker system and ooyh is spectacular.

 

[acia]

No offense intended for anyone .

I am bit lost. As an end user consumers, are au equipment supposed to be used as if they were some sort of scientific equipment doing all sorts of measurements?

I myself is more concerned about the human interface in day to day use, industrial design and aesthetics . How it sounds to my ears .

Would leave those wonderful graphs for others .

 

[KMann]

Has anybody else been running into issues with powering the Mobius on after the firmware update (AudezeMobiusFirmware_v3_2018_11_16)? Ever since I flashed the firmware the initial power up seems to turn on the amps but nothing else. I hear the amps come on because of the noise floor / hiss, but don't get any audio until I power them off and then back on. After I do that I get the "power on" greeting message and they work normally. I tried flashing the firmware again but still have the same issue. Very rarely (maybe 5% of the time) it powers on normally the first time, but most of the time I have to power off / power on. I read through this thread and don't think I saw anyone else with the same issue, so I figured I'd ask and see. I flashed the firmware (V3 - AudezeMobiusFirmware_v3_2018_11_16) from a Windows 10 PC running version the Audeze HQ app (version Beta 1.0 - AudezeHQ_Installer_106). Any suggestions @KMann ?

• Is it connected to BT or USB when you power on and off? Try unpairing.
• If it is connected to USB, is the Audeze HQ app open when you power on and off? (Try closing HQ app)