[Bazile]

Quote:

When a human hears two simultaneous tones of different pitch of near equal amplitude, if the two tones are near enough in frequency or pitch, the listener can sometimes perceive a third tone which is a beat frequency oscillation between the two original tones, alternately, the listener may also perceive a comb filtering effect (very large and rapid change in amplitude) of the original tones depending upon the nearness in pitch of the originals.
 

 
Pardon Sir;
 
Is this paragraph the cause of the "phantom member" of barbershop quartets? Thanks, and the hijacking is over.
 
Bazile

 

[TigzStudio]

Quote:

How can something have exceptional detail and be extremely rolled off in the treble at the same time?
 

I was curious about this as well, I assume he means detail as in the texture on everything below the stuff he feels is missing in the higher freq.

 

[Shahrose]

Quote:

I was curious about this as well, I assume he means detail as in the texture on everything below the stuff he feels is missing in the higher freq.

x2.

 

[upstateguy]

 
Quote:

KW, all of that makes sense to me, but it still has nothing to do with pitch. Timbre, yes. Pitch, no. You could only change the pitch of the music by speeding up or slowing down the recording in question - emphasizing some frequencies, even in the extreme car stereo example, does not alter the pitch.

This was my understanding too............... <shrugs shoulders>
 
Quote:

.... "simple short wire" headphone cables not exceeding some level (such as 1 dB or the repeatbility of the frequency response measurement itself)

I wish I understood this.  Are you saying that a cable can give a repeatable 1db frequency boost?

 
Quote:

Last night, I sat down and did a serious listening session comparing the LCD-s', the T-1's and the Denon 7000's (which were completely rewired from head to toe using Siltech wiring by Drew of Moon Audio).
 
First of all, I was extremely surprised to find that the T-1's bass were totally anemic compared to the other 2 brands. It was just plain missing.
 

Thanks for taking the time to do the comparisons immtbiker. 
 
Two things: 
 
(1) Did you recable the T-1s ? 
 
(2)  I just did a mini comparison of stock T-1s to stock 650s (which are another bassy headphone) and I have to completely agree with you.  Where'd  the bass go?  Your description of the T-1s bass being totally anemic was spot on, (when comparing them directly with the 650s). 
 
I've been listening to the T-1s exclusively since I got them and this comparison was a real eye opener.
 
That said, I'm probably going to like the LCDs since I prefer the tone of the 650 to the T-1.
 
[rig used in my comparison:  foobar 1.3 > HiFace > North Star MKII > GS-1]

 
Quote:

Nice post, immtbiker!  I don't want to gainsay .........
 
You say the bass was "just plain missing" from the T1.  Were you overstating the case to make a point, or is there a possibility that the amp you used was not well suited to the T1? 
 
 

 
Yep, I found the same thing.  Relative to 650s, the bass was just plain missing.  I plugged in both headphones and went back and forth, even compensating for the volume difference with the T-1, but it sounded just the way immtbiker described it. A bunch of treble and no bass.  Go figure?????????

USG

 

[immtbiker]

Quote:

 

Orville Redenbacher or Jiffy Pop? Same main ingredient, 2 different outcomes. 

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Thanks for taking the time to do the comparisons immtbiker. 
 
Two things: 
 
(1) Did you recable the T-1s ? 
 
(2)  I just did a mini comparison of stock T-1s to stock 650s (which are another bassy headphone) and I have to completely agree with you.  Where'd  the bass go?  Your description of the T-1s bass being totally anemic was spot on, (when comparing them directly with the 650s). 
 

 
1 - Recabled Denons, stock T-1's and LCD-2's.
 
Quote:

How can something have exceptional detail and be extremely rolled off in the treble at the same time?

 
2 - Yummy detail in the midrange, not in the Houdini (apparently disappeared) highs.
 
3 -  Some of the graphs agree with me, and some contradict me. But, please realize that I'm
no "dummy head" and have real ears and wants and desires, and can only go by what I hear.

 

[jingles_97]

 
3 -  Some of the graphs agree with me, and some contradict me. But, please realize that I'm
no "dummy head" and have real ears and wants and desires, and can only go by what I hear.

Well said.
 
Now before any of you in line for the LCD2 jump off the cliff, this "darkness" is all comparatively speaking, is neither here or there without valid comparisons (as there is no such thing as a completely uncolored, neutral headphones... techinally probable in the future, but impossible through aural perceptions).  It's neither an accolade nor a condemnation.  It's just a characteristic of these phones, and listeners can easily get used to its unique style of sonic presentations in a very short amount of time.
 
I will not go as far to say that 1/3 of the audio spectrum is missing.  And in this case the effect of the trebble roll off is not nearly as pronounced as my SE530.   All the musical stuff is still there,  it's just like being in a different room accoustics compared to the HD800.

 

[oqvist]

As long as the room accoustics is not the same as the HD 650 I am satisfied. Will know soon enough hopefully they will respond well to equalizing otherwise

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Last night, I sat down and did a serious listening session comparing the LCD-s', the T-1's and the Denon 7000's (which were
completely rewired from head to toe using Siltech wiring by Drew of Moon Audio). [snip]
 
A lot of people when they first get them, say they are dark, but change their minds after hours of use. The truth is, they are
dark. They just don't reach the upper register that other headphones from $900-1500 reach. There's no way around that. I think
that they are just convincing themselves to justify their purchase. They are a great headphone that succeed in many areas, but
treble extension is not one of them. Their detail is unrivaled and they produce a presentation that is unbelievable, but they are
missing notes and have a deficit when it comes to sustaining the high notes. [snip]
 
In come the modded Denon 7000's. They lack a bit in detail, and the bass is a bit wobbly, but the highs are clear as a bell
(the Siltech wiring is probably the emulsifier) and the bass is truly dominant even though they can use a bit more tightness. It
made me realize all of the upper register that was missing from the Audeze. Our brains, especially after a $1000 purchase can
easily be convinced to grow with the LCD-2's, but I believe, unless you get a better cable, it is bottlenecking the upper end.
Listening to the LCD-2's for a solid week without listening to anything else, was a rewarding experience, until I brought some other equally priced, high end offerings into the mix.
 
A good percentage of new owner say they are dark, right from the onset, and then eventually grow to love them. That doesn't
mean that the sound has changed. Our brain has accepted them for what they are, and without comparisons, they are the greatest thing since color TV. Once you compare, it becomes a different story.
 
This, combined with different retrofits still being offered to different order periods, make me want to wait until Audeze comes
out with a final product, that they feel is the best that they can offer. It is not fair that different monthly orders are getting different headphones. Each revision needs to be called a different model number so that the models can be distinguished from one another.
 
Again, these are great ortho headphones with gobs of detail and tremendous bass, but 1/3 of the equation is still missing. God's
gift to the headphone world is going to have to be allowed some more time.

I understand where you are coming from.  I feel the same way.  Great headphone, but something is missing.  I will add that I still think that I like these over my old RS-1 that I sold, due to their more enveloping soundstage and the brain's ability to fill in the missing highs when you don't compare them to another phone.  The RS-1 with flats also felt dark to me, and while they became sparkly with bowl pads they lost the life in their mids and bass.  I also prefer the LCD-2 over my HF-2, HD600 and modded A900, and maybe even my ESW10.  But I don't know that I'd pick them over the HE-5 LE, HE-6, HD800, O2 Mk1, HE60 and Jade.  
 
These LCD-2 have a nice fullness and weight to their presentation, in addition to the nice soundstage; but my LA7000 give me that plus the highs and soundstage, in exchange for just a small amount of detail that they lack.  Now, a stock D7000 to me is still lacking some in the highs, recessed in the mids and the bass is woolier; but my LA7000 with Jenna Labs cable and bubinga wood cups offers a noticeable jump above the stock D7000 in performance.  If I had to pick between my LA7000 or the LCD-2 I'd pick the LA7000.  
 
I feel that the HE-5 LE are on a similar level as the LCD-2, but with a different sound.  I think that I slightly prefer my HE-5 LE to the LCD-2 at times, depending on the amp I use.  The HE-5 LE don't have the same weight and presence or fullness in their presentation, but they have good bass, rich mids, and a little better presentation in the details and highs.  I'd almost say the HE-5 LE sound more delicate with more finesse than the LCD-2, while sounding fuller and giving a better foundation to the mids than the original HE-5 did, and smoother highs than the original HE-5.  I find the LCD-2 to be a little more fatiguing than the HE-5 LE or HE-6, similar to the HD800 on the wrong amp.  And the high clamping force of the LCD-2 doesn't help much at all in term of fatigue.  In that regard all my other phones are more comfortable.
 
 
Quote:

Well said.
 
Now before any of you in line for the LCD2 jump off the cliff, this "darkness" is all comparatively speaking, is neither here or there without valid comparisons (as there is no such thing as a completely uncolored, neutral headphones... techinally probable in the future, but impossible through aural perceptions).  It's neither an accolade nor a condemnation.  It's just a characteristic of these phones, and listeners can easily get used to its unique style of sonic presentations in a very short amount of time.
 
I will not go as far to say that 1/3 of the audio spectrum is missing.  And in this case the effect of the trebble roll off is not nearly as pronounced as my SE530.   All the musical stuff is still there,  it's just like being in a different room accoustics compared to the HD800.

Just like I can acclimate to the darker O2 Mk1 after a while, or the brighter HD800, I can acclimate to the LCD-2 sound as well.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Pitch must have a different meaning to you. I'm Finnish and I've come to learn the word differently.
 
Let's explicit. Pitch = Sävelkorkeus. If I splice that word, I get (Sävel = Note, Tune, Melody, Key, Voice, Tone) and (Korkeus = Height)... Height of a note, make sense? It's just that some headphones flatten melodies as such:
 

 
I took this granted for a long time and came to learn that even the most transparent gear don't promise you this. I've had a pair of Adam Audio A5's, which measure quite nice in transient response as well as having a flat FR, but it's not everything..
 
This is easily noticeable when compared to the right gear.

In english, pitch=frequency in Hz.
 
Example:  A note with the pitch of A equals 440Hz in frequency.

 

[kwkarth]

Immtbiker, what amp did you use that was optimum with all three of the cans you compared?

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Immtbiker, what amp did you use that was optimum with all three of the cans you compared?

I'm sorry, but I read that as implying that he doesn't know how to compare headphones fairly.

 

[frenshprince]

Quote:

Immtbiker, what amp did you use that was optimum with all three of the cans you compared?

I'm interested in the answer as well

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

I'm sorry, but I read that as implying that he doesn't know how to compare headphones fairly.

I guess it's a good thing that you misinterpreted what I asked and not immtbiker!  I did not ask him if he knew how to compare headphones.  If I wondered about that I would have asked him.

 

[grokit]

Wow this thread had really taken off over the weekend, close to 80 new posts since I last checked...
 
Quote:

Grokit,what do you mean by very heavy presentation?i dont quite imagine what that mean.

To me it's the opposite of a thin sounding headphone like perhaps the AKG K701. As opposed to light/darkness, I would say that what they offer is body, or fullness. The LCD-2 doesn't have as much air in the presentation as some headphones, but they aren't congested by any means. I would say that my HiFiMAN HE-5 has a noticeable lighter sound than the LCD-2. Perhaps this does translate back to the lower-mid bump that others have mentioned. To me the HD600/650 both sound heavy compared to say the SR325is or K701, but the HD650 could be considered dark where the HD600 is not. Hope that makes a little more sense to you!

 
Quote:

Tigz, I'll be interested to hear your impressions with the different cables. Thanks for being the guinea pig

X2

 
Quote:

I guess it's a good thing that you misinterpreted what I asked and not immtbiker!  I did not ask him if he knew how to compare headphones.  If I wondered about that I would have asked him.

Those are some big impedance differences that you pointed out with the T1 compared to the other two to be sure. I would assume that the amplifier used for comparison has a way of compensating, but it doesn't hurt to ask. The FR graph that you posted would certainly imply that the T1 has some bass to offer, at least to a dummy head!

 

[SP Wild]

 
Quote:

Last night, I sat down and did a serious listening session comparing the LCD-s', the T-1's and the Denon 7000's (which were
completely rewired from head to toe using Siltech wiring by Drew of Moon Audio).
First of all, I was extremely surprised to find that the T-1's bass were totally anemic compared to the other 2 brands. It was
just plain missing. I would have not noticed this without doing head-head comparisons.
Secondly, anyone who says that the LCD-2's are not a dark headphone, either has not done direct comparisons or have
become  completely acclimated to them after some long term ownership. They blew the other 2 headphones away in detail, but
I'm sorry, the treble is extremely rolled off, and the only way to not hear that is to just listen to them by themselves without
doing comparisons to other top tier headphones.
A lot of people when they first get them, say they are dark, but change their minds after hours of use. The truth is, they are
dark. They just don't reach the upper register that other headphones from $900-1500 reach. There's no way around that. I think
that they are just convincing themselves to justify their purchase. They are a great headphone that succeed in many areas, but
treble extension is not one of them. Their detail is unrivaled and they produce a presentation that is unbelievable, but they are
missing notes and have a deficit when it comes to sustaining the high notes.
The T-1's are a good overall performer, but when comparing the three headphones, the bass is just downright missing. It's not
that the bass isn't visceral, it's just that it is not there. Period. This analysis was made using the same source and the same
amp for all three.
 
In come the modded Denon 7000's. They lack a bit in detail, and the bass is a bit wobbly, but the highs are clear as a bell
(the Siltech wiring is probably the emulsifier) and the bass is truly dominant even though they can use a bit more tightness. It
made me realize all of the upper register that was missing from the Audeze. Our brains, especially after a $1000 purchase can
easily be convinced to grow with the LCD-2's, but I believe, unless you get a better cable, it is bottlenecking the upper end.
Listening to the LCD-2's for a solid week without listening to anything else, was a rewarding experience, until I brought some other equally priced, high end offerings into the mix.
A good percentage of new owner say they are dark, right from the onset, and then eventually grow to love them. That doesn't
mean that the sound has changed. Our brain has accepted them for what they are, and without comparisons, they are the greatest thing since color TV. Once you compare, it becomes a different story.
 
This, combined with different retrofits still being offered to different order periods, make me want to wait until Audeze comes
out with a final product, that they feel is the best that they can offer. It is not fair that different monthly orders are getting different headphones. Each revision needs to be called a different model number so that the models can be distinguished from one another.
 
Again, these are great ortho headphones with gobs of detail and tremendous bass, but 1/3 of the equation is still missing. God's
gift to the headphone world is going to have to be allowed some more time.

That sounds great for me!!!  I have the D7000 and EQ them with a maximum of -4 to -5 db in the treble regions - I find them way to sibilant and bright standard.  I also vary the bass regions from 0 to -3 db reduction (depending on recording).  It's extraordinary how reducing the midbass bloat via EQ tightens up the bass on the D7000 (definately the tightest in my collection).  Both these reductions have the net effect of bringin up that graphable dip in the midrange.
 
With regards to the missing detailing in the D7000, I attribute this to the mid-dip (graphable) and the fact that these cans are entirely of "closed can" sounding at approximately 400-500hz and down, with the can sounding "open canned" from there onwards - opening further as the frequency moves up towards the treble.

 
Quote:

It has everything to do with pitch for multiple reasons.
 
When a human hears two simultaneous frequencies of different pitch and of different frequencies, (such as the fundamental and the resonant frequency of the bandpass woofer) the louder tone will be prevalent to the listener, even to the point of total obfuscation of the quieter tone.
 
When a human hears two simultaneous tones of different pitch of near equal amplitude, if the two tones are near enough in frequency or pitch, the listener can sometimes perceive a third tone which is a beat frequency oscillation between the two original tones, alternately, the listener may also perceive a comb filtering effect (very large and rapid change in amplitude) of the original tones depending upon the nearness in pitch of the originals.
 
So, yes, someone with a sensitive ear could perceive alteration on pitch without understanding the causation of said phenomena.  

How enlightening!!!
 
I have never thought, or was consciously aware, of this "beat frequency oscillation" - but you may have brought it up to my consciousness.  I think I may be hearing this phenomena - when this occurs on my speakers, when "warm tones" in the recording mesh with "warm resonance" in the speaker cabin - I get a euphonic "wobble" at those tones - it is definately a coloration, a coloration I can excuse as it can be hypnotic and pleasurable.  My problem with the HD800 may be this "beat FR oscillation" in the very upper registers - which may be contributed to it's extended treble and the HD800 cup resonances.  Whatever it was - you may as well put a bullet in brain, as it was torture to my ears within 20 minutes of auditioning.  I find the D7000 treble just as extended, but without the lethality.  I am now guessing it is my individual HRTF.

 
Quote:

As long as the room accoustics is not the same as the HD 650 I am satisfied. Will know soon enough hopefully they will respond well to equalizing otherwise

From what I gather now, with the help of all the valuable impressions - there is no logical reason to breath these cans in the same breath.