[Paganini Alfredo]

Oh ok, makes more sense, sorry I misunderstood.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

KW, all of that makes sense to me, but it still has nothing to do with pitch. Timbre, yes. Pitch, no. You could only change the pitch of the music by speeding up or slowing down the recording in question - emphasizing some frequencies, even in the extreme car stereo example, does not alter the pitch.

It has everything to do with pitch for multiple reasons.
 
When a human hears two simultaneous frequencies of different pitch and of different frequencies, (such as the fundamental and the resonant frequency of the bandpass woofer) the louder tone will be prevalent to the listener, even to the point of total obfuscation of the quieter tone.
 
When a human hears two simultaneous tones of different pitch of near equal amplitude, if the two tones are near enough in frequency or pitch, the listener can sometimes perceive a third tone which is a beat frequency oscillation between the two original tones, alternately, the listener may also perceive a comb filtering effect (very large and rapid change in amplitude) of the original tones depending upon the nearness in pitch of the originals.
 
So, yes, someone with a sensitive ear could perceive alteration on pitch without understanding the causation of said phenomena.  

 

[Paganini Alfredo]

 
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[Shahrose]

 
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cables cannot change headphone frequency response by the 6-10 dB necessary to change the LCD-2 frequency response to resemble some other high end can - one with a reputation for "brightness" if you like
 
this isn't a subjective opinion - it is a engineering reality - 6 dB is 4x the power, 10 dB is 10x the power - simple short wire and low K dielectric cables, even of Gold or Silver, do not cause relative differences of that magnitude at some frequencies in the audio frequency range and not others driving a load as near a 50 Ohm resistor as Tyll's impedance measurement show for the LCD-2
 
as an engineer I and my employer regularly bet multiple US$10k on such "opinions" - backed by education and experience designing, building and measuring the results
 
if you believe posters of subjective opinions on "cable sound" at all and that what they describe is some function of headphone/cable/amplifier frequency response (as implied by their language when they use terms like "dark", bright") you have to accept that they are talking about differences of fractions of dB
 
 
 
no headphone modifies pitch where it has any output at all - timbre can be affected by frequency response  

 
I never said cables could change the frequency response by 6-10dB. I said they can produce audible changes. I can detect even a 1dB change with an equalizer, and quantitatively, that's about as much difference cables have made in my system ... and I'm not even getting into factors like transient response, microdetail, soundstage and overall clarity, which also change often times.
 
Anyways, I've said all I wanted to and won't participate in a general cable discussion in this thread anymore.

 

[oqvist]

thanks for the review immtbiker

 

[cravenz]

Quote:

thanks for the review immtbiker

x2. Nice to see a refreshing take on it.

 

[kwkarth]

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Last night, I sat down and did a serious listening session comparing the LCD-s', the T-1's and the Denon 7000's (which were completely rewired from head to toe using Siltech wiring by Drew of Moon Audio).
First of all, I was extremely surprised to find that the T-1's bass were totally anemic compared to the other 2 brands. It was just plain missing. I would have not noticed this without doing head-head comparisons.
 
Secondly, anyone who says that the LCD-2's are not a dark headphone, either has not done direct comparisons or have become  completely acclimated to them after some long term ownership. They blew the other 2 headphones away in detail, but I'm sorry, the treble is extremely rolled off, and the only way to not hear that is to just listen to them by themselves without doing comparisons to other top tier headphones.  A lot of people when they first get them, say they are dark, but change their minds after hours of use. The truth is, they are dark. They just don't reach the upper register that other headphones from $900-1500 reach. There's no way around that. I think that they are just convincing themselves to justify their purchase. They are a great headphone that succeed in many areas, but
treble extension is not one of them. Their detail is unrivaled and they produce a presentation that is unbelievable, but they are missing notes and have a deficit when it comes to sustaining the high notes.
 
The T-1's are a good overall performer, but when comparing the three headphones, the bass is just downright missing. It's not that the bass isn't visceral, it's just that it is not there. Period.
 
This analysis was made using the same source and the same amp for all three.
 
In come the modded Denon 7000's. They lack a bit in detail, and the bass is a bit wobbly, but the highs are clear as a bell (the Siltech wiring is probably the emulsifier) and the bass is truly dominant even though they can use a bit more tightness. It made me realize all of the upper register that was missing from the Audeze. Our brains, especially after a $1000 purchase can easily be convinced to grow with the LCD-2's, but I believe, unless you get a better cable, it is bottlenecking the upper end.  
 
Listening to the LCD-2's for a solid week without listening to anything else, was a rewarding experience, until I brought some other equally priced, high end offerings into the mix.  A good percentage of new owner say they are dark, right from the onset, and then eventually grow to love them. That doesn't
mean that the sound has changed. Our brain has accepted them for what they are, and without comparisons, they are the greatest thing since color TV. Once you compare, it becomes a different story.
 
This, combined with different retrofits still being offered to different order periods, make me want to wait until Audeze comes out with a final product, that they feel is the best that they can offer. It is not fair that different monthly orders are getting different headphones. Each revision needs to be called a different model number so that the models can be distinguished from one another.
 
Again, these are great ortho headphones with gobs of detail and tremendous bass, but 1/3 of the equation is still missing. God's gift to the headphone world is going to have to be allowed some more time.

Nice post, immtbiker!  I don't want to gainsay what you said, but I would like to ask for further clarification on a couple of points...
 
Let's start with a reference graph or two;

 

 
Ok, let's park those aside for the moment...
 
First, you mention that you used the same amp with all three cans.  The T1 is a 600 ohm can, the LCD-2, 50 ohms, and the Denon, 25 ohms.  How in the world did you find one amp, optimum for all three cans?
 
You say the bass was "just plain missing" from the T1.  Were you overstating the case to make a point, or is there a possibility that the amp you used was not well suited to the T1?  Maybe the graph above is wrong, even though those measurements have been corroborated elsewhere.  Looks more to me like the extreme treble above 10kHz is "missing."  Actually, we know that any measurement of any can above 10kHz is dubious because of standing wave cancellations and other non predictable variances. 
 
You seemingly contradict yourself in the same sentence when you say that "they blew the other 2 headphones away in detail, but I'm sorry, the treble is extremely rolled off."  How can something have exceptional detail and be extremely rolled off in the treble at the same time?
 
By the graphs, the Denon's look to be the best of the bunch above 40Hz, but you mention wobbly bass and lacking detail.  Can you expand on this please?
 
Oh, and what 1/3 is missing?
 
Thanks!!
 
 

 

 

[Racio]

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Mind if I join you?... 

 

 

[kwkarth]

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Mind if I join you?... 

 
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'Stuff's addictive, no?  

 

[Paganini Alfredo]

Indeed!

Immtbiker, I didn't catch whether or not you were using a new cable for the LCD-2s... were you?
 

 

[sokolov91]

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Don't make your opinions sound like facts. Aftermarket cables do have a marked effect on the LCD-2's sound according to those who've used them.
Some impressions here: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/491564/audeze-lcd2-with-alo-lux-fep-18awg-cable

Don't let their failing perceptions overrule/outweigh the available facts

 

[electropop]

Quote:

KW, all of that makes sense to me, but it still has nothing to do with pitch. Timbre, yes. Pitch, no. You could only change the pitch of the music by speeding up or slowing down the recording in question - emphasizing some frequencies, even in the extreme car stereo example, does not alter the pitch.

Pitch must have a different meaning to you. I'm Finnish and I've come to learn the word differently.
 
Let's explicit. Pitch = Sävelkorkeus. If I splice that word, I get (Sävel = Note, Tune, Melody, Key, Voice, Tone) and (Korkeus = Height)... Height of a note, make sense? It's just that some headphones flatten melodies as such:
 

 
I took this granted for a long time and came to learn that even the most transparent gear don't promise you this. I've had a pair of Adam Audio A5's, which measure quite nice in transient response as well as having a flat FR, but it's not everything..
 
This is easily noticeable when compared to the right gear.

 

[Skylab]

Pitch has a definition.  It's the fundamental frequency of a sound.  It is my opinion, which is unchanged by what's been written by anyone here, that headphones do not alter the pitch of music to any meaningful, or even detectable degree.  Things like the Doppler effect can alter pitch, but I do not believe that there is any chance that can occur in headphones.  Things like, for example, a rolled off treble, do NOT change the pitch of notes.  It may decrease the prominence of a given note versus another, but that is simply not the same thing as changing pitch.
 
But I'm a stubborn old coot, and this is wildly off topic.

 

[Cya|\|]

Quote:

/cut

One more who prefers a brighter sound. Am i the only one who sent them an email asking them if they'd release silver plated cables? They answered they don't plan to, and that i could buy commercial cables (by at least 125$

). Hifiman released a silver plated cable for 25$, so it's VERY cheap to build one for them. They offered it for so low because the hele5 was very high priced, but the lcd 2 are even more expensive, so it should be no problem to offer this choice. I know i've said this many times, and don't wanna bother you.
A cable cannot make much difference, but 1db on a wide frequency range (let's say from 2khz to 20khz) is VERY noticeable.
But please, send them emails asking them for an option to choose a different cable, maybe they'll listen to more people.

 

[knopi]

I have LCD-2 a few days, don't have my amp yet. So I visited my friend, it was short meet on his rig. His rig is quality Czech diy discrete amp Dispre 2 V4 by Pavel Dudek and unknown but amazing Czech high-end diy dac (called Big Brother) by Tomas Tichy which can be compared even with top dacs such as Forssell, Emm Lab. He own HD800.
 
I am not a big fan of HD800. But it was first time I really like them, it was pleasure to listen them. LCD-2 didn't sound so good, we expected much much more. I was quite surprised that this amp with aproximatelly 1W "probably" wasn't right for LCD-2. I hope I will have chance try them with other amps during a few months.
 
photo by Kocmeister