[SomeGuyDude]

Originally Posted by marcan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
 
I would be glad too

It's not hard to understand what people post if you stop to read them before making knee-jerk responses. 

 

[MRC001]

  Let's not forget the reason the "loudness war" started was people tended to select albums in jukeboxes that were recorded a little louder and more compressed than others. People tend to drift toward those albums.
 
I know compression is a dirty word in audiophile circles, but it didn't show up because recording engineers had a random hate boner for listeners and felt like making everything sound like garbage out of spite, and it's not like it's easier to compress a mix than leave it with its natural range. It's no different than why consumer headphones tend to be v-shaped. Record labels and audio manufacturers follow what the consumers ask for. 

The most plausible explanation I can think of for the loudness wars is that (A) they want their songs to sound as loud as possible when played on the radio, and (B) they want it sound good on cheap stereos, which 99% of their listeners own. This is also consistent with the fact that heavy compression is found mostly in popular music, rarely used in classical music recordings.

 

[MRC001]

  It depends the observation order. In this case it was a subjective observation that has been confirmed by the graphs.
I would be glad too

I thought of another way to explain this. My point is that when it comes to comparing FR, the shape of the curve is important, the absolute level is not. The reason for this is that the zero point of the curve is arbitrary. The FR curves of the 2.2 and the Fazor have the same shape in bass response; they have different shape in upper mids & treble. The best way to compare the 2 headphones is align the FR curves so they match over the largest portion of the frequency range, then look at the areas where they are different. I did that using the FR curves from InnerFidelity and here's what I got:
 
The cyan & yellow lines are the Fazor (I inverted the colors so you could see them better); blue & red are the 2.2.

You can see their bass response is identical (+/- 1 dB) from subsonic to just over 1 kHz. The Fazor has slightly more response in the upper mids & treble.
The only reason the Fazor appears to have shelved bass response compared to the 2.2 in InnerFidelity's graphs is because the zero point of the FR curve was chosen just above 1 kHz. This is an arbitrary decision.
 
One could argue that lining up the curves the way I've done is just a trick to make my point. But there's an objective motivation for it. Lining them up this way matches the curves over the widest frequency range (more than 6 octaves). Any other way you line them up gives matching response over a smaller range.

 

[Malfunkt]

  Welp. I'm back.

Welcome back! How long were you gone for? And metal is (Mastadon, and like) is your preferred music right?
 
Also, I see you are selling a number of headsets, HD650 and HD700! Looks like your new LCD2F has sealed their fate.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

  Welcome back! How long were you gone for? And metal is (Mastadon, and like) is your preferred music right?
 
Also, I see you are selling a number of headsets, HD650 and HD700! Looks like your new LCD2F has sealed their fate.

I am indeed a metal dude! And hoo boy I have been all over the place in the interim. I think my list went like this (roughly in order):
 

1. Philips X1
2. HD600
3. HD650
4. AKG K712
5. EL-8O
6. Audioquest Nighthawk
7. Beyer DT990
8. HD700
9. HD650

 
And back to the 2, although before I just had the regular 2.2, now the 2F. I'd initially avoided the F because it seemed like the prevailing opinion was that the fazor ruined the "Audeze sound" and whatnot. It's been a few years since I heard the 2.2 but the F sounds stunning. 

 

[Tom Blake]

  I am indeed a metal dude! And hoo boy I have been all over the place in the interim. I think my list went like this (roughly in order):
 

1. Philips X1
2. HD600
3. HD650
4. AKG K712
5. EL-8O
6. Audioquest Nighthawk
7. Beyer DT990
8. HD700
9. HD650

 
And back to the 2, although before I just had the regular 2.2, now the 2F. I'd initially avoided the F because it seemed like the prevailing opinion was that the fazor ruined the "Audeze sound" and whatnot. It's been a few years since I heard the 2.2 but the F sounds stunning. 

Congrats on being back in the fold! I am also a metal dude and LOVE my LCD-2F (late 2016 model). The bass and overall smooth sound signature is just intoxicating. I think they do great on all genres but particularly metal with the authoritative bass and the smooth top end playing nice with poor recordings. I am presently looking for a similar sounding set of closed cans to supplement them for when I need more isolation. Leaning to ZMF Atticus. 

 

[SomeGuyDude]

  Congrats on being back in the fold! I am also a metal dude and LOVE my LCD-2F (late 2016 model). The bass and overall smooth sound signature is just intoxicating. I think they do great on all genres but particularly metal with the authoritative bass and the smooth top end playing nice with poor recordings. I am presently looking for a similar sounding set of closed cans to supplement them for when I need more isolation. Leaning to ZMF Atticus. 

 
I'd be curious to hear a set of TH-900 Mkii, personally. I do love the sound of a biocel.

 

[Tom Blake]

I have a used set of TH900 Mk I's arriving today. AFAIK the only change to Mk II was the removable cables. Got them for cheap with some cosmetic dings. Will try them for a while and pit against ZMF Eikon or Atticus with the winner staying.

 

[marcan]

 
I thought of another way to explain this. 

Sure you can manipulate the FR as much as you want but maybe the simplest and best way to explain this is just that rev2 has more low end. It's on the graph, and I can hear it. I have an extensive experience in the music mix and production so I have learned to trust my ears. Just speculating without listening isn't really valuable. In the end, the most important is what you hear. 
So I suggest that we stop polluting this forum with an endless discussion.
Cheers

 

[MRC001]

  ... maybe the simplest and best way to explain this is just that rev2 has more low end. It's on the graph, and I can hear it.

"It's on the graph" - that's where we disagree. It's not on the graph. Measurements (FR curve) match within 1 dB from subsonic to 1 kHz.
"I can hear it" - I never questioned this. I'm sure you do hear it, and what you hear is real. It's not just caused by what you think it is.
 
 
Quote:

So I suggest that we stop polluting this forum with an endless discussion.

I agree! This is a silly debate. The Fazor doesn't have less low end, it has more mids/treble. Relatively and subjectively speaking, it's the same thing. But in absolute objective terms, it's not.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

  I agree! This is a silly debate. The Fazor doesn't have less low end, it has more mids/treble. Relatively and subjectively speaking, it's the same thing. But in absolute objective terms, it's not.

This is the biggest takeaway. There is no difference between "more bass" and "less treble" except where you center the graph. 
 
All I know is I'm having that wonderful fun of rediscovering a lot of my music.

 

[siberianmoon]

   
I agree! This is a silly debate. The Fazor doesn't have less low end, it has more mids/treble. Relatively and subjectively speaking, it's the same thing. But in absolute objective terms, it's not.

No, in absolute terms the sound is different. If you want to specify just how it's different, you will have to choose a reference point, which then makes all comparison relative to it. It doesn't really matter whether you're comparing two different revisions of the 'same' headphone or two completely different cans altogether.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

  No, in absolute terms the sound is different. If you want to specify just how it's different, you will have to choose a reference point, which then makes all comparison relative to it. It doesn't really matter if you're comparing two different revisions of the 'same' headphone or two completely different cans altogether.

I believe we already decided that this debate is dumb, but kudos for keeping it going. 

 

[siberianmoon]

  I believe we already decided that this debate is dumb, but kudos for keeping it going. 

Well, you seem to keep posting just to get the final word, but at least for me there's a better reason, that is to have a post in this thread, so that I can see it in my 'recent activity' instead of having to open up the god damn slow subscriptions page...

 

[SomeGuyDude]

Anyone tried the VE cables for these? Thinking of snagging a pair since they're so damn cheap.