At what price range do you reach the point of major diminishing returns?
Dec 5, 2007 at 7:39 PM Post #31 of 45
Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif
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I like staying in and around the red box, which for me is <$300 for a desktop amp (and mobile/office headphones that don't require one).

I buy my snake oil wholesale though, so I don't need any of it with my audio gear.



X2
 
Dec 5, 2007 at 7:47 PM Post #32 of 45
Quote:

Originally Posted by Penchum /img/forum/go_quote.gif
X2


OK , OK, OK, I'll admit I'm really just off the lower left tip of the blue
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Dec 5, 2007 at 10:11 PM Post #33 of 45
I think the average person has a really odd view of what's "crap." That orange box in the graph goes up to about $1500 if you assume the range of the graph is $0-$5000. Where the label "crap" is, is about at the $300 mark.

I would question $2200-$3000 as the sweet spot too.

Amps like the LDIII and Darkvoice really sound good, period. They don't sound as good as some other amps but dismissing everything in that pricerange as crap is ludicrous.
 
Dec 6, 2007 at 1:56 AM Post #34 of 45
I think 2000-3000 is way luxury and provided the circuit is solid and the parts are not garbage, the amp should be out of this world. 500-750 I think is the real sweet spot.
 
Dec 6, 2007 at 3:11 AM Post #35 of 45
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think 2000-3000 is way luxury and provided the circuit is solid and the parts are not garbage, the amp should be out of this world. 500-750 I think is the real sweet spot.


I think there are a lot of sweet spots at different price ranges. I agree with the poster above that said the Darkvoice sounds good. It does, and for under $300. Wonderful little amp. Yet, if we're really talking about diminishing returns from an sq point of view only, as opposed to lifestyle choices, it's been my experience that the $2000-3000 range is where that begins. Until that point, you can get hugh leaps in sq easily recognized by most everyone (even my mother, and that's saying something); at around the $2000 mark (a very fuzzy line), assuming all components in a system are well matched, those leaps start becoming more subtle, nuanced, and more dictated by preference when comparing amp to amp, system to system. Will a SP SDS XLR sound better than my amp? Yes. But many thousands of dollars more? I don't think so (but that doesn't mean I don't want one). Does my amp sound better than a Darkvoice? Yes. A couple thousand dollars more? With certain headphones, it absolutely does; with others, no it doesn't. Same thing with other amps in this price range. Are they luxuries? Yes, but that's a lifestyle choice, and a different issue.
 
Dec 6, 2007 at 3:28 AM Post #36 of 45
For me it was about $1000. Jumping from $300 solutions to $1000 solutions had a very noticeable impact for me. Still, others could not hear the difference, so it's all very relative.

GAD
 
Dec 6, 2007 at 5:50 AM Post #37 of 45
Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think there are a lot of sweet spots at different price ranges. I agree with the poster above that said the Darkvoice sounds good. It does, and for under $300. Wonderful little amp. Yet, if we're really talking about diminishing returns from an sq point of view only, as opposed to lifestyle choices, it's been my experience that the $2000-3000 range is where that begins. Until that point, you can get hugh leaps in sq easily recognized by most everyone (even my mother, and that's saying something); at around the $2000 mark (a very fuzzy line), assuming all components in a system are well matched, those leaps start becoming more subtle, nuanced, and more dictated by preference when comparing amp to amp, system to system. Will a SP SDS XLR sound better than my amp? Yes. But many thousands of dollars more? I don't think so (but that doesn't mean I don't want one). Does my amp sound better than a Darkvoice? Yes. A couple thousand dollars more? With certain headphones, it absolutely does; with others, no it doesn't. Same thing with other amps in this price range. Are they luxuries? Yes, but that's a lifestyle choice, and a different issue.


What is a huge leap? I mean, we have to define this and sadly this is impossible because it will be subjective. If we go by EE measurements alone a few hundred bucks well engineered can best a 20 000 amp which isn't engineered well. With sound quality, I've heard a good many amps, from all over the map in price, and I wouldn't personally say that one continually gets huges leaps in sound quality up to 2000, not for headphone amps. I'm not saying that the improvements aren't worth it. Not at all, one look at my profile (or err..well the one I used to have, I should fill it out again) there is no doubt I'm OC about my sound, modifying my cd player 3 times, the Melos twice...I'm all over that last 5%, but I guess I'm more forgiving of lower quality products and because of this, I'm more conservative in what accounts for huge improvements and diminishing returns. Is the progression linear? Exponential? At what price point does the curve change from exponential to linear or vice versa, if at all? Do we see a dramatic drop off at some point (say the 3k zone?) or is it more like Ph0rk's graph with incremental but slow climbing improvements with large outputs of money? Is that $1000 amp 5x better than the $200? Is the $3000 really 3x better? Hard to say at all, and I think folks REALLY need to go out and listen before they buy because some will be horribly disappointed or will try to convince themselves otherwise if they don't hear it right away. They should of course if something is 3x better, or 15x better etc. With amps, particularly with headphones, I'd personally try to put more money in the sources and the headphones rather than the amp, I feel there is more to gain throwing gobs of cash at a source, or getting la creme de la creme of the headphone world.

A clock radio can get someone at least 40% of the sound, maybe even 65% after that we have to move on. Throw in better media (no FM airwaves here!) and an amp and good speakers and things start to get really nice, clarity, presence, space, soundstage, tone, timber, imaging etc. Yet the lyrics, the tempo, the notes, the overall sound comes through loud and clear with a simple radio and an FM signal. I know some pro musicians that are quite content listening to FM radio...particularly the CBC Radio 2 classical broadcasts...all through a simple radio, like a Tivoli, and my gosh, limited by the speakers, the amp, the signal strength etc, we still get the essence! No doubt everything will sound better throwing 500 bucks at a setup or 1000 , but I would be worried to say that someone is going to go up and up and up. Subjective again, because some would place incredible importance on certain aspects of the sound that is missing and only really ever fully or largely reproduced with expensive gear.
 
Dec 6, 2007 at 6:30 AM Post #38 of 45
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif
What is a huge leap? I mean, we have to define this and sadly this is impossible because it will be subjective. If we go by EE measurements alone a few hundred bucks well engineered can best a 20 000 amp which isn't engineered well. With sound quality, I've heard a good many amps, from all over the map in price, and I wouldn't personally say that one continually gets huges leaps in sound quality up to 2000, not for headphone amps. I'm not saying that the improvements aren't worth it. Not at all, one look at my profile (or err..well the one I used to have, I should fill it out again) there is no doubt I'm OC about my sound, modifying my cd player 3 times, the Melos twice...I'm all over that last 5%, but I guess I'm more forgiving of lower quality products and because of this, I'm more conservative in what accounts for huge improvements and diminishing returns. Is the progression linear? Exponential? At what price point does the curve change from exponential to linear or vice versa, if at all? Do we see a dramatic drop off at some point (say the 3k zone?) or is it more like Ph0rk's graph with incremental but slow climbing improvements with large outputs of money? Is that $1000 amp 5x better than the $200? Is the $3000 really 3x better? Hard to say at all, and I think folks REALLY need to go out and listen before they buy because some will be horribly disappointed or will try to convince themselves otherwise if they don't hear it right away. They should of course if something is 3x better, or 15x better etc. With amps, particularly with headphones, I'd personally try to put more money in the sources and the headphones rather than the amp, I feel there is more to gain throwing gobs of cash at a source, or getting la creme de la creme of the headphone world.

A clock radio can get someone at least 40% of the sound, maybe even 65% after that we have to move on. Throw in better media (no FM airwaves here!) and an amp and good speakers and things start to get really nice, clarity, presence, space, soundstage, tone, timber, imaging etc. Yet the lyrics, the tempo, the notes, the overall sound comes through loud and clear with a simple radio and an FM signal. I know some pro musicians that are quite content listening to FM radio...particularly the CBC Radio 2 classical broadcasts...all through a simple radio, like a Tivoli, and my gosh, limited by the speakers, the amp, the signal strength etc, we still get the essence! No doubt everything will sound better throwing 500 bucks at a setup or 1000 , but I would be worried to say that someone is going to go up and up and up. Subjective again, because some would place incredible importance on certain aspects of the sound that is missing and only really ever fully or largely reproduced with expensive gear.



Blah, I'd spend another grand if it got me an extra 10%-15% across the board.. People forget, sometimes the most subtle improvements, or that last 5% are the best.. But for non hardcore Head fiers, yeah it would be a waste of serious cash.. & not a good value at all if you aren't looking at diminishing returns..But for me it's worth it.. I want to go as high up the audio chain that I can possibly afford..
 
Dec 6, 2007 at 6:41 AM Post #39 of 45
Zanth, I actually agree much of what you said, especially about the source, though I don't, and can't think of these things as linear, or able to be graphed in a meaningful way precisely because it's all so subjective. I equate my personal definition of "leaps" to when I heard something better (again, connected with associated gear) to my ears, and somehow, and not meaning to or even wanting to, dismissing something as not even coming close (different reasons with different amps). I can still appreciate amps at most price ranges, including the $125 mini^3 I'm listening with right now, but I've also been lucky enough to hang out in the homes of Florida head-fiers, who buy way too much gear to be normal, and hear multiple amps in varying price ranges, though admittedly most over $1500, there as well as at meets. Trying different amps out with the same or different sources and same or different headphones was often part of the fun. Since I'll never own them, it was really about enjoying and evaluating them for what they were. And, again, which headphones used made a huge difference in whether I could pick up significant differences in amps and even sources.

If I included DIY, like Thrice's balanced beta, I'd say $1500ish was where I no longer experienced leaps when comparing gear, but shades of appreciation for varying strengths. Wait...maybe less when remembering flecom's Dynamight (get that cased up already, Frank!
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) That's where paying more for an extra 5-10% starting entering in as a consideration for me, as in is it worth it or not worth it. Before that, that definition of diminishing returns never entered my mind. I don't think of things as twice as good or dollar for dollar good. That doesn't make sense to me. Worth it or not worth is does, and again, that's highly subjective.

That said, there are a whole lot of amps I've never heard, so maybe I'll change my mind on all this when I do. That would be nice, especially if they're less expensive. This has just been my experience so far.
 
Dec 6, 2007 at 6:43 AM Post #40 of 45
Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Blah, I'd spend another grand if it got me an extra 10%-15% across the board.. People forget, sometimes the most subtle improvements, or that last 5% are the best.. But for non hardcore Head fiers, yeah it would be a waste of serious cash.. & not a good value at all if you aren't looking at diminishing returns..But for me it's worth it.. I want to go as high up the audio chain that I can possibly afford..


Same here, but no doubt, dimishing returns have kicked in rationally, I'm irrational when it comes to audio and musical enjoyment, indeed that last 5% is worth 50% of the price of my gear, to me anyway.
 
Dec 6, 2007 at 5:49 PM Post #42 of 45
Quote:

Originally Posted by d-cee /img/forum/go_quote.gif
whatever it is, i haven't found it


And all this time I thought if you really really wanted something deminishing returns didn't even enter the picture
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Dec 6, 2007 at 6:19 PM Post #43 of 45
Here is a great article in defense of spending money

I read it last night. I had responded to boomana's most recent post but it was lost during the DB corruption/crash. While I was waiting for head-fi to come back online I was pointed to the article by someone at Audio Asylum.

A great read, rather well balanced and clearly demonstrates why spending money to get one closer to the music is about robbing your wallet, it's about rewarding your ears, mind heart and soul. His premise is that even though one can listen through stock el cheapo ear buds and to mp3s, 128 or not, one can't ever really be fully moved by the music. It's strength lies in quantity and convenience, no doubt very important and useful at specified times, but to get full insight into the music, to have the performers in your room...gotta shell out the cash.
 

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