[HeatFan12]

Quote:

We will have to wait, measure, and see. Manufactures often go backwards with new products despite their marketing claims--especially in areas that are not immediately obvious or easily verified.  

 
 
No disrespect at all to you nwavguy because you seem to be very knowledgeable about all these tests.  But do you have to measure everything?  Do you not like listening to music?
 
It's just that you've been on this site for a short period of time and I see your posts in different sub-forums and it's always about testing and measuring things...
 
Again, no disrespect, but enjoy the music sir...
 

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

We will have to wait, measure, and see. Manufactures often go backwards with new products despite their marketing claims--especially in areas that are not immediately obvious or easily verified. Apple's marketing team played up the new "much more durable" screen glass on the iPhone 4, when in reality, it's proven to be far more fragile and there's already a class action lawsuit over it and some of the accidental damage insurance plans are now excluding the iPhone 4's screen glass from their coverage due to excessive claims.

Apple largely follows a "form over function" design philosophy. And in wanting to make the iPhone 4 slimmer and more sexy, they made the glass far more vulnerable if the phone is dropped. They switched to a more durable type of glass, and their marketing department played it up as a great new feature, but their aesthetic design choices still made it more fragile. So I wouldn't be surprised if we see "24 Bit DAC" proudly displayed on the Apple website but the 24 bit iPod's actually measure worse or about the same.
 
It's worth noting that other factors in a portable player generally limit what's known as the "ENOB" or Effective Number Of Bits. Even the best portable players I know of don't achieve, in the real world, 16 bit ENOB. So it's unlikely a 24 bit DAC is going to change things much. (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENOB and also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter ).
 
Finally, as shown in my Clip+ review, the iPod Touch 3G, with the exception of it's lousy output impedance, already has excellent audio performance including the DAC performance. So it's not the DAC that needs improving, it's the headphone amplifier circuitry.

 
Agreed on most counts.  The only thing I would point out is that having a 24bit DAC acts as a content expander for your music collection.
 

 

[nwavguy]

Quote:

But do you have to measure everything?  Do you not like listening to music?
 
It's just that you've been on this site for a short period of time and I see your posts in different sub-forums and it's always about testing and measuring things...
 

I love listening to music! And, you're right, I'm often talking about measurements. Here are my Top Five Reasons:

 

• If you look at all the posts on this (and most other) forums hardly ANY of them are about measurements. So I'm trying to fill a void.  Measurements provide a good counterbalance to all the subjective stuff you see here.
• Measurements are an easier way for many people to compare between gear when trying to decide what to buy compared to the more common subjective comments which are just one person's personal opinion and taste and likely won't match their own tastes and opinions.
• Most people who want to buy a car would like to at least know what kind of gas mileage it gets. And they'd prefer an actual real world number over some vague statement like "the mileage is great!" And if Ford claims the Mustang gets 20 miles per gallon, wouldn't it be nice to know if that's close to being true? Why should audio gear be different?
• Many people seem to find measurements really useful--like those who've left positive feedback here, on my blog, and elsewhere.
• Finally, measurements let me be more comfortable with the gear I listen to. If I know if it measures well I don't need to worry as much if I made the right choice, something else might sound even better, or if something might be wrong, etc.

 

[macrocheesium]

I really hope if Apple starts the lossless store, they'll let you re-download tracks you've purchased before, in lossless. Since I got into audio and realized how inferior iTunes files are to lossless, I've had to buy some CDs over so I could rip them.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

5. Finally, measurements let me be more comfortable with the gear I listen to. If I know if it measures well I don't need to worry as much if I made the right choice, something else might sound even better, or if something might be wrong, etc.

I take exception with this but that's just my personal opinion.  Definitely a can worms that should remain closed.

 

[nwavguy]

Quote:

 
I take exception with this but that's just my personal opinion.  Definitely a can worms that should remain closed.

Hey, I made it clear that's just for me, not everyone. I was just trying to answer the question why I think measurements are important. I'm not looking to get into any "religious" arguments.

 

[Smokhee]

keep it up, nwa guy!
 
Oh wait, that would be Dr. Dre.....  nwav guy! 
 
Your measurements and comparisons are VERY helpful to me.  For example, I know what an ipod touch sounds like.  When you say the Sansa is very similar except for the amp, this is useful info BECAUSE I USE AN LOD.  I have been asking people to compare the ipods and iphones using LOD with a Sansa and got no reliable answers.  So I will stick with my ipod via LOD to a Headstage Arrow!

 

[Achmedisdead]

Quote:

I really hope if Apple starts the lossless store, they'll let you re-download tracks you've purchased before, in lossless. Since I got into audio and realized how inferior iTunes files are to lossless, I've had to buy some CDs over so I could rip them.

 
There's about a 0% chance of that happening....lol.

 

[tazdavid98]

I disagree when people are saying iPods cannot be audiophile devices.
 
Plug your iPod full of ALAC songs on an Onkyo ND-S1 which take out the digital audio out (PCM data,16bits, 32/44.1/48khz) from your iPod, connect an high-end DAC + Amp + speakers to the Onkyo dock. You get an audiophile system.
 
Do I miss something somewhere?

 

[Firefighter]

Yeah I agree with the above poster, I'm having a blast with my 2010 160gb Classic w/fiio e7 and IE8s. Also Classic 160+ LOD+fiio E7+Grados are blast too...

 

[Kiiskinen]

But... That's like saying "It's wrong to say your Nissan Micra can't be fast! Just change the engine, bodywork and add a few jet engines!". Sure, it will be a fast car then, but is it really the Micra being fast or just a ton of fast parts making the slow core move fast? Or "Yeah skullcandy headphones sound great! Just chance the driver, cables, housing and pads!".
 
In order to be a good device shouldn't it sound good on it's own, from the get-go? I'm not saying it doesn't though, as I don't really know what the objective definition for 'sounding good' is (I do know that I like my X7's sound over iPod's sound even if the iPod is paired with an E7 & LO-cable).
 
It's a neat little player, but is it really the one sounding good if you add a ton of extra stuff that have nothing to do with the player?

 

[blitz-dice]

ipods would become an audiophile device if we "attach" something to it

im talking about imoding/LOD>amp/LOD>mini>caps>amp. But if we are talking about only the ipod itself? nah its not.

 

[shigzeo]

See, that's where things get subjective. What is it about the i7 that you like? I don't use amps or LODS and love my music and iPod touch 4G and the 2G. When it comes to love the sound of, there is nothing but subjectivity to paint the description. The iPod is certainly a higher quality playback device than the i7 is, but I doubt that level matched, same earphones, same music and blindly administered, most of its plusses would even matter. I've conducted several informal tests like this with relatively neutral (non-butterworth) players, and not a single audiophile has been able to come away saying one was better or even identify the differences.
 
These subjective discussions are even tawdrier than DSLR resolution discussions. In real life, armchair internet warriors know little to nothing about the gear they use. Instead, they know sides and endlessly debate with unproved satisfaction, how one is best and another worst.
 
iTunes, proprietary lossless, price - those issues I understand, but taking the inane anti-conformist philosophy (what camp are you) and applying it without base to audio quality is adolescent.

 

[goodvibes]

My fav of the lot is the Touch 3 but I don't have any phones below 30 ohms. The amp stage is a bit smooth sounding but still quite good. The line out is simply great. The touch 4 is a bit more analytical in the wrong way but still very good. I suspect that the 4s amp may spec better but the line out isn't quite as musical imo. I suspect that a 3 with a 4 amp stage would be hard to top. I use wav on these. The 3 makes a surprisingly good transport via the Wadia 170i with an upgraded PS and can do 16/48 and 24/44. I haven't tried but I would suspect my 4 can do the same. My touch 3 pretty much smokes my Sansas, rockboxed or not and I still go both ways depending on firmware. Still use a Fuze/FLAC quite a bit due to its size and how well it and IEMs fit in a Phonak case. I may try an amp at some point but even the touch is a bit bulky on it's own for random use.

 

[nwavguy]

Quote:

See, that's where things get subjective. What is it about the i7 that you like? I don't use amps or LODS and love my music and iPod touch 4G and the 2G. When it comes to love the sound of, there is nothing but subjectivity to paint the description. The iPod is certainly a higher quality playback device than the i7 is, but I doubt that level matched, same earphones, same music and blindly administered, most of its plusses would even matter. I've conducted several informal tests like this with relatively neutral (non-butterworth) players, and not a single audiophile has been able to come away saying one was better or even identify the differences.
 
These subjective discussions are even tawdrier than DSLR resolution discussions. In real life, armchair internet warriors know little to nothing about the gear they use. Instead, they know sides and endlessly debate with unproved satisfaction, how one is best and another worst.
 
iTunes, proprietary lossless, price - those issues I understand, but taking the inane anti-conformist philosophy (what camp are you) and applying it without base to audio quality is adolescent.

I have to largely agree with shigzeo above. That's one reason I started my blog. I don't expect to "convert the religious" but I wanted to offer more objective information about audio gear with a focus on facts and knowledge rather than emotion, myth and cult-like devotion to particular products.
 
And using an iPod as essentially a "hard drive" for your music with other hardware doing all the decoding, playback, etc. is certainly a valid use for an iPod. And for car audio, or a home A/V system (like the Onkyo set up described above) it makes sense. But I have a harder time with the concept of lugging around a portable headphone amp or DAC when neither is generally needed. Such as set up is much less "portable" and it usually doesn't, as shigzeo said, get a person better actual sound. In fact, sometimes the sound is worse with more hiss, etc.
 
There certainly are headphones some iPods have trouble with but they're mostly ones designed for home or pro use. There are plenty of great headphones that work really well with an iPod or say a Sansa Clip+ or Fuze. So, to me, instead of buying a portable amp/dac, it makes more sense to buy some good headphones that work well straight from the player. Then you've got an awesome sounding combination that is far more portable, one less thing to keep charged, fewer cables, etc.
 
The world of headphones is not that different from the world of speakers. The weakest link in the chain, by far, is the headphones or speakers. So spending more money on the weak link is likely to yield much bigger improvements in sound quality than spending more money on improving the already respectable electronics.
 
I'm in the process of testing the very popular NuForce uDAC-2. And I'm rather surprised. So far, it's measuring much *worse* than my iPod 3G Touch in many areas--especially distortion and channel balance. Even the Clip+ outperforms it in some ways. It's interesting and very telling the Clip+, which can be found for $29 and is an entire portable player/FM radio/voice recorder, has similar performance in many areas to a second generation $130 dedicated audiophile desktop DAC.