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The Wizard Appreciation Thread - Long Live the Wizard - The former HA Appreciation Thread - Page 11  

post #151 of 7980
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanashimu View Post

I have some serious doubts about their operation.

The charts that I did see had absolutely horrible driver matching. I don't know if its obvious in listening - but the new open Shure headphones took a ton of flak for bad measurements.

First of all there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to have any doubt about Heir.  I as many will attest about the first class, top notch service and the outstanding quality of the products.  

 

Secondly as many members have prior to this post noted the graphs were never supposed to have been sent out but were mistakenly.  Rest assured that John would never allow an IEM to be shipped out if it had any issues whatsoever.

 

 Lastly this is an appreciation thread and as such I am sure that it would be appreciated if you edited your comment.
 

 

 


Edited by Poimandres - 2/12/12 at 4:33pm
post #152 of 7980
well, I think it's perfectly healthy to question weird things you see on fr charts, since say Tyll and UM provide charts. Tyll does seem to think they're pretty reliable (but won't measure ciems for reliability reasons) and people think they can at least provide an idea about the general sound signature (and the charts generally don't show channel imabalance).

the other thing is, if the charts are used to for iem development and quality control or troubleshooting it's healthy to ask what ensures the min channel imbalance across the FR

on the other hand, since people don't verify the channel imbalance by ear, there's no reason to think it's there.
post #153 of 7980


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post

 

 Lastly this is an appreciation thread and as such I am sure that it would be appreciated if you edited your comment.
 


On the contrary, I'd rather be a devil's advocate and not completely ignore this potential negatives of a product rather than promote hype-fi. Of almost all audio products I've owned, and especially of my CIEMs, I've raised PLENTY of concerns that would be very damaging to the associated companies should they not handle the situation well. And guess what? If you spread the word enough, stuff gets done, and everyone gets a better product, and better service.

I'm just trying to keep companies honest here, and its the end user, or you, the buyer, who benefits. If a company does well in the face of a challenge, that is more concrete confidence that we can hold in their company. We can't assume everything is perfect and just ride on the coattails of previous successes - then we'd just have another Bose.

 

No, I will not edit my comments. If I get banned or censored, thats my problem. But I will not blindly accept companies who permit shoddy, supposedly high end products. Heir Audio seems to be doing alright as of now - that doesn't mean it will be forever. As I reiterate - companies need to stay honest.

post #154 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanashimu View Post

I have some serious doubts about their operation.

The charts that I did see had absolutely horrible driver matching. I don't know if its obvious in listening - but the new open Shure headphones took a ton of flak for bad measurements.



To be fair this IS an appreciation thread so you should expect a certain amount of 'appreciation'.

 

I also think most people accept constructive criticism but, your initial comment did come across as an unreasoned attack. A few people made some comments on the charts but also mentioned that there were not any problems with the CIEM's themselves so condemning someones business based on a few forum posts does seem a bit excessive!

 

Also, the Heir audio website has a news section which has been updated concerning the comments on this thread

post #155 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by cho8 View Post



To be fair this IS an appreciation thread so you should expect a certain amount of 'appreciation'.

 

I also think most people accept constructive criticism but, your initial comment did come across as an unreasoned attack. A few people made some comments on the charts but also mentioned that there were not any problems with the CIEM's themselves so condemning someones business based on a few forum posts does seem a bit excessive!

 

Also, the Heir audio website has a news section which has been updated concerning the comments on this thread



Yes, I suppose I was too harsh. I should apologize there I guess. But as I stated before - I am right on one point. When a company feels threatened by potential dissension with their products - it is with that that they will strive to do the best they possibly can. This is evidenced by their news post, which I read just now.

 

Shure's new headphones seemed to measure poorly on graphs and there was no end to uncontained hate and mockery, cancelling of preorders. I don't see the difference - these are both high end headphones that should be held to very high standards.


If I were to properly appreciate my CIEMs, I'd surely want to know all the potential weaknesses it may have (for example, I learned the hard way that I can't continually swap cables with a recessed socket because UM's recessed sockets are dodgy. As a result from complaints, they are working on new sockets). We can't simply live like we're in cloud nine and be oblivious to everything that isn't angelic and heavenly and perfect.

post #156 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanashimu View Post



Yes, I suppose I was too harsh. I should apologize there I guess. But as I stated before - I am right on one point. When a company feels threatened by potential dissension with their products - it is with that that they will strive to do the best they possibly can. This is evidenced by their news post, which I read just now.

Shure's new headphones seemed to measure poorly on graphs and there was no end to uncontained hate and mockery, cancelling of preorders. I don't see the difference - these are both high end headphones that should be held to very high standards.


If I were to properly appreciate my CIEMs, I'd surely want to know all the potential weaknesses it may have (for example, I learned the hard way that I can't continually swap cables with a recessed socket because UM's recessed sockets are dodgy. As a result from complaints, they are working on new sockets). We can't simply live like we're in cloud nine and be oblivious to everything that isn't angelic and heavenly and perfect.

shure is to big to come to forums and talk with us. heh, *shoots pms about current order for SM3x8 with UM and the sockets. I too want the new type. Although Stephen did warn me about not swapping the non-stock westone cable too often if I bought a non-stock cable with a different pin size or something. Matt at some point did also mention the sockets are fine as long as I don't swap them too often*


>When a company feels threatened by potential dissension with their products - it is with that that they will strive to do the best they possibly can. This is evidenced by their news post, which I read just now.

look, while I want heir to provide FR charts to see whether I want to buy one of their IEMs because of the sound sig being what I like (based on listening to UM things, or other things that have FR measurements on Tyll's site and I still don't see what the big deal is with assessing what iems sound like based on anchored real life impressions of ones with similar or different FR charts), and John is ignoring my requests via PM lol, I still think a company may be posting refuting news posts on their site in good faith. John is fairly forthright about why he doesn't believe FR charts if you ask him, and I'm pretty sure he's posted his reasons here as well.
post #157 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanashimu View Post



Yes, I suppose I was too harsh. I should apologize there I guess. But as I stated before - I am right on one point. When a company feels threatened by potential dissension with their products - it is with that that they will strive to do the best they possibly can. This is evidenced by their news post, which I read just now.

 

Shure's new headphones seemed to measure poorly on graphs and there was no end to uncontained hate and mockery, cancelling of preorders. I don't see the difference - these are both high end headphones that should be held to very high standards.


If I were to properly appreciate my CIEMs, I'd surely want to know all the potential weaknesses it may have (for example, I learned the hard way that I can't continually swap cables with a recessed socket because UM's recessed sockets are dodgy. As a result from complaints, they are working on new sockets). We can't simply live like we're in cloud nine and be oblivious to everything that isn't angelic and heavenly and perfect.

The problem with your criticism is that it's not based on anything when it comes to freq. response charts. There's no standard for these charts, they are easily mistaken and head-fi'ers don't understand the ways they are manipulated--even the comparison of the UM chart with the Heir Audio one just a few posts up is a farce as the UM one has been smoothed over to make it look nice for consumers...

 

The idea that we should attack a company that makes excellent products over nothing just in case someday in the future there's a problem is a little odd. When a company shows bad faith, then we should say something, but not when it is doing well by us.
 

 

post #158 of 7980


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunlun View Post

The problem with your criticism is that it's not based on anything when it comes to freq. response charts. There's no standard for these charts, they are easily mistaken and head-fi'ers don't understand the ways they are manipulated--even the comparison of the UM chart with the Heir Audio one just a few posts up is a farce as the UM one has been smoothed over to make it look nice for consumers...

 

The idea that we should attack a company that makes excellent products over nothing just in case someday in the future there's a problem is a little odd. When a company shows bad faith, then we should say something, but not when it is doing well by us.
 

 


 

339ae3c7_4A-Frequency-Chart.jpeg

 


I mean I suppose if a 10 db mismatch at 4 khz is nothing, then I don't know jack about FR charts and I'm truly just spouting nonsense. If Heir actually does provide an accurate chart and doesn't manipulate it, then why do owners staunchly say there is no difference between drive matching when they claim they can hear a .5 db mismatch when there are much larger mismatches all throughout the chart? Perhaps people can't tell as well as they'd like to think?

Either way, I DO appreciate that Heir did provide some charts at least. It is a LOT less sketchy than every other CIEM manufacturer that manages to skimp in that regard and make themselves impervious to measurements that every other headphone is subjected to. To think that owners of many CIEMs may attribute driver mismatching to fit issues is rather appalling. 

 

The issue with companies is that they will always try to shove bad publicity under the rug. When one person raises a complaint about a company, a lot of people will defend the company and accuse the poster of spreading FUD. They often get censored or banned. I suppose if the Heir FR measurements are both flawed and not intended, that's fine - but what is their motive behind it? The bare truth seems rather ugly. I'm absolutely sure that the vast majority of Headfiers would like to see an FR chart, even if it isn't absolutely perfect. Its just one of those things that inspire confidence that your product is working as it should be and gives you an idea of characteristics, helps you EQ.. 

 

UM has lost a LOT of respect from me and I'm just finding them very shady at the moment, especially if what you say is true. When my Miracles work perfectly they're great, truly five star products, but there are so many things that go wrong (mostly build quality and fit issues) as well as some questionable customer service and turnaround times. I really wished that I just went top of the line universal rather than customs, which have just been a bad investment and a lot of grief for me. If I could get a refund and get my over $1000 I've spent on the Miracle and shipping and refits, I'd trade it all back. 
 

 

Edit: I received some PMs that have been very interesting, and would lay fears to rest. Thank you for taking time to do so. I won't divulge exactly what was said to me - I suppose its private, but I would have no fears about Heir's IEMs. I'd like to apologize to Heir - I did not intend to sound like I was slandering their products, I was merely skeptical, as I normally am. 


Edited by Kanashimu - 2/13/12 at 4:09pm
post #159 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanashimu View Post

I mean I suppose if a 10 db mismatch at 4 khz is nothing, then I don't know jack about FR charts and I'm truly just spouting nonsense. If Heir actually does provide an accurate chart and doesn't manipulate it, then why do owners staunchly say there is no difference between drive matching when they claim they can hear a .5 db mismatch when there are much larger mismatches all throughout the chart? Perhaps people can't tell as well as they'd like to think?


Since I'm the person who told you I could hear differences of 0.5 dB, I'm actually those "people" who, according to you, "can't tell as well as they'd like to think." Only I don't simply think I can; I know. I took a blind test, with a result of 9/10. I also took the 0.2 dB test, and failed. I provided you with the link to those tests; so why don't you go check by yourself, instead of insinuating that "people" are full of ****? mad.gif

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanashimu View Post

The issue with companies is that they will always try to shove bad publicity under the rug. When one person raises a complaint about a company, a lot of people will defend the company and accuse the poster of spreading FUD. They often get censored or banned. 

 

I can't remember even one instance of Jude banning anyone for raising a complaint about a company. I think he'd have to ban a lot of Head-Fiers, even if he only banned those who criticize his sponsors.

 

Fact is: He doesn't.

 


Edited by Sinocelt - 2/14/12 at 1:04am
post #160 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinocelt View Post


Since I'm the person who told you I could hear differences of 0.5 dB, I'm actually those "people" who, according to you, "can't tell as well as they'd like to think." Only I don't simply think I can; I know. I took a blind test, with a result of 9/10. I also took the 0.2 dB test, and failed. I provided you with the link to those tests; so why don't you go check by yourself, instead of insinuating that "people" are full of ****? mad.gif

 

 

 

 

I can't remember even one instance of Jude banning anyone for raising a complaint about a company. I think he'd have to ban a lot of Head-Fiers, even if he only banned those who criticize his sponsors.

 

Fact is: He doesn't.

 



nwavguy for example asserts that he was banned for publically questioning Schiit about their amps. 

 

I've heard lots of stories about people who do get banned for talking down on sponsors. Censorship means that you don't necessarily know. Whether those who claim that they've been banned or not are credible or not, or how legit their ban really is - I do not know. I've only heard their side of the story. 

post #161 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanashimu View Post



 


 
350x244px-LL-5e37bc26_339ae3c7_4A-Frequency-Chart.jpeg



I mean I suppose if a 10 db mismatch at 4 khz is nothing, then I don't know jack about FR charts and I'm truly just spouting nonsense. If Heir actually does provide an accurate chart and doesn't manipulate it, then why do owners staunchly say there is no difference between drive matching when they claim they can hear a .5 db mismatch when there are much larger mismatches all throughout the chart? Perhaps people can't tell as well as they'd like to think?


Either way, I DO appreciate that Heir did provide some charts at least. It is a LOT less sketchy than every other CIEM manufacturer that manages to skimp in that regard and make themselves impervious to measurements that every other headphone is subjected to. To think that owners of many CIEMs may attribute driver mismatching to fit issues is rather appalling. 

The issue with companies is that they will always try to shove bad publicity under the rug. When one person raises a complaint about a company, a lot of people will defend the company and accuse the poster of spreading FUD. They often get censored or banned. I suppose if the Heir FR measurements are both flawed and not intended, that's fine - but what is their motive behind it? The bare truth seems rather ugly. I'm absolutely sure that the vast majority of Headfiers would like to see an FR chart, even if it isn't absolutely perfect. Its just one of those things that inspire confidence that your product is working as it should be and gives you an idea of characteristics, helps you EQ.. 

UM has lost a LOT of respect from me and I'm just finding them very shady at the moment, especially if what you say is true. When my Miracles work perfectly they're great, truly five star products, but there are so many things that go wrong (mostly build quality and fit issues) as well as some questionable customer service and turnaround times. I really wished that I just went top of the line universal rather than customs, which have just been a bad investment and a lot of grief for me. If I could get a refund and get my over $1000 I've spent on the Miracle and shipping and refits, I'd trade it all back. 

 

Edit: I received some PMs that have been very interesting, and would lay fears to rest. Thank you for taking time to do so. I won't divulge exactly what was said to me - I suppose its private, but I would have no fears about Heir's IEMs. I'd like to apologize to Heir - I did not intend to sound like I was slandering their products, I was merely skeptical, as I normally am. 

there's no conspiracy about the A/B blind tests for SPL differences (down to 0.1dB on http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_index.php )
post #162 of 7980

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanashimu View Post

nwavguy for example asserts that he was banned for publically questioning Schiit about their amps. 

 

I've heard lots of stories about people who do get banned for talking down on sponsors. Censorship means that you don't necessarily know. Whether those who claim that they've been banned or not are credible or not, or how legit their ban really is - I do not know. I've only heard their side of the story. 


nwavguy was not banned for publicly questioning or criticizing the products of any sponsor. In fact, I'm quite sure that every single criticism he has posted--every piece of data he has posted here--remains (unless he has since removed any of it, prior to this ban). What he took exception to was my request that (a) he remove the link to his blog from his signature, and (b) that he refrain from linking to his blog frequently. This is a request we (moderators) send out at least a couple/few times per week. Are exceptions made? Yes, on a case-by-case basis, but not before a person has shown that one of his primary reasons for posting here is not pointing people to his site or video channel. And, by the time the exception is granted, the person in question is usually a more veteran member.

 

When he was asked these things, he took great exception to the request; and, not surprisingly, even more so when the links were removed. What he doesn't post (and what I have the messages to prove, as I'm sure does he) is that I told him he was more than welcome to post his information here, instead of posting teasers here and then linking to his site to finish. I told him at some point he might be able to do that here; but, again, not before he had shown that one of his primary reasons for being here wasn't to redirect to his blog.

 

Take a look for yourself. It's all still here (save for a good number of links to his site).

 

As for the ban? One of the fastest paths from being a member able to post here to someone banned from here is to send a hostile message with mention of attorney(s) and such. Try it and you'll see. 

 

I don't agree with all of his positions, but I appreciate his positions. And he's certainly a sharp guy, I certainly can't argue that. But his accusations of being censored here, and his strong opposition to it (remembering that the censorship was pretty much entirely limited to his links), are, in my opinion, inaccurately represented, unfair, and ring hollow.

 

Yes, we censored him--we removed at least some of his links to his site (including the one he'd placed in his signature). But I'm quite sure all the info he posted (other than the links) is still here (again, unless, before he was banned, he removed any of it).

 

His posts on his blog about this issue--his calls to action and protest--seem to me to at least strongly suggest that his content and data criticizing the products of Head-Fi's sponsors was deleted here. Again, I'm quite sure that, other than links to his blog, the information and data he posted is all still here. And, again, he was told at the time he could continue to post his posts, findings, data and information here, minus the frequent linking to his blog (and his signature link). That he couldn't link to his blog, or place a link in his signature, was, as he put it, censorship, which was something he could not abide by (and something he was clearly ticked off about).

 

Regarding censorship, here is one of many things nwavguy said to me (and this is a direct quote), in response to my link removal request(s):

 

Quote:
I'm all for open communications and a lack of censorship. I'm very much against anyone trying to distort reality through censorship of any kind.

 

Anyone who was here through all of that ruckus remembers that no censorship of any kind was one of his primary rallying cries.

 

However, from his blog (as of today):

 

Quote:
PLEASE NOTE: Comments may take anywhere from a few minutes to a few days to be approved. The approval process is necessary to prevent obscenity, etc...

 

More comments from him in another forum make clear it is not just limited to obscenity:

 

Quote:
The anonymous comments lately have been on the original O2 Headphone Amp article and the Subjective vs Objective Debate article. The ones I haven't published have been sent to Blogger's spam folder and are not visible. 

 

Quote:
It seems to me they're just trying to pick fights and/or throw up the same tired audiophile arguments that have never stood up to any reasonable scrutiny. And when I refused to publish a few the tone switched to being more subtle and trying to seem like they would "like to believe in me" but somehow just can't.

 

Quote:
...the sad part, to me at least, is having to censor comments. I honestly can't tell if some of them are genuine or a carefully veiled attempt to just dilute the comments as so often happens on Head-Fi. And I'm sure that might be their intent. But, as Maverick said, there really isn't a winning move here. If I publish everything the comments sections become ungainly and nobody will want to read them. If I don't some will accuse me of censorship.

 

To me, that's ironic, and, at the very least, rather hypocritical.

 

Am I going to discuss his ban any further than this? Do you see me discussing anyone else's ban on the forums? Rarely. Very rarely. So the answer to that question is probably not.

 

On most days, at least a couple-thousand posts are made on Head-Fi. How many of those posts do you suppose criticize sponsor products? And are you suggesting that they're removed? So the only posts having to do with sponsor products are the ones that are positive, all others deleted? Is that what you're suggesting? Really? Look around. It won't take long for you to see how absurd that suggestion is.

 

And so now are you suggesting I'm protecting Heir Audio? Here's a piece of news for you: Until I was directed to this thread, I'd never even heard of them.

post #163 of 7980

Well said Jude. I think at this point we can put the whole conspiracy theory aspect of this discussion to bed. 

 

The bigger discussion is still relevant: how much does an FR chart really correlate with the way the headphone actually sounds? It's a great topic, one that I enjoy discussing whether it be here or on InnerFidelity.

 

The thing is - the charts from Heir Audio are in a totally different category than the new Shure models. Tyll is pretty darn good at getting repeatable results from circumaural headphones. He can even get nice consistent results from universal IEMs. But he can't get meaningful info for custom IEMs... at least, not yet. Since I contribute over there, I have somewhat of a relationship with Tyll, and we've discussed the matter. I've offered to send him about a dozen of my custom IEMs for measurement. Normally he would love to have a large new sample of well respected high end earphones to play with. But in this particular category it's simply a no-go for the time being.

 

So it isn't like Heir Audio is deliberately trying to obfuscate the issue by not providing graphs - if Tyll, being generally accepted as THE headphone measurement guy, isn't comfortable doing it, then we shouldn't hold Heir to an even higher standard. 

post #164 of 7980

What I'd like to know is what it is about CIEMs that makes it so hard to measure them? One thing that gave me pause about buying the 4.A's was the side doesn't listen frequency response where others do. I'm starting to wonder if it isn't that Heir Audio isn't guessing or fluffing the data and is, instead, only showing what it knows for certain.

post #165 of 7980


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanashimu View Post

 

 


I mean I suppose if a 10 db mismatch at 4 khz is nothing, then I don't know jack about FR charts and I'm truly just spouting nonsense.

 

Edit: I received some PMs that have been very interesting, and would lay fears to rest. Thank you for taking time to do so. I won't divulge exactly what was said to me - I suppose its private, but I would have no fears about Heir's IEMs. I'd like to apologize to Heir - I did not intend to sound like I was slandering their products, I was merely skeptical, as I normally am. 


Yes.

 

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