[gregorio]

A bit of misleading advertising...or just being overzealous.

I'm seeing more and more of this, it's really getting out of hand. It's not a bit misleading, it's very misleading just look at some of what it says in the link provided:

Under specifications "SNR: 125 dB, A-weighted, 2.2 Vrms": - Firstly they have deliberately used dBA which manipulates the results by at least 2 or more dB. So the absolute best the unit can achieve is actually 123dB. But earlier the advertising says "delivers an unprecedented DNR of up to 135dB". So in other words, 12dB of the dynamic range exists below the noise floor of the unit and therefore cannot be heard! If that is not enough they say "the Calyx uses 8 Sabre 32bit converters!" So in actual fact the unit should be capable of 192dB dynamic range but obviously isn't. In fact, this unit cannot even resolve 21bits of resolution, let alone 32bits.

The problem facing DAC manufacturers is that even 16bit offers roughly 1000 times more dynamic range than the most dynamic CD or LP ever commercially released. DACs can be produced which are perfectly linear within the hearing spectrum. Manufacturers can't produce a product which is better than perfectly linear, so what are they to do to sell product? They only have two choices, produce a perfectly linear DAC at a lower price or produce DACs with ridiculous claims about specifications and then use marketing to convince consumers that these completely outrageous specifications are in some way better. Do you actually know what a dynamic range of 32bit would sound like? Let's hope you never do, because if it was actually possible to resolve 32bits of dynamic range it would kill you instantly!

G

 

[bobeau]

Quote:

Thanks for the clarification.
 
Maybe if it is really going to be offered in Europe with a 30-day return I will give it a try and line it up against the Lavry.
A review where there the tester has nothing but good things to say and no weaknesses (or 'very minor') are just not convincing at all to me so any kind reviews where the flaws are just as exposed the strengths are much more interesting to me but those the kind of reviews that are not so common here, especially with brand new products.

My take is for the price there is nothing weak about it - that is, if you are indeed going to use the headamp which drives low impedence cans quite well and apparently higher impedence competently.  As a DAC only I'd investigate other options, even if it's only another Saber DAC.
 
Aside from that I believe it mostly comes down to whether you like an uber-detailed neutral sigma-delta sound... to me it just doesn't sound natural.  It sounds digital, harsh transients, cold, etc, but that's no fault of this particular unit, it's just the class of chip it uses.  I left more detailed impressions in that original thread.
 

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

... if it was actually possible to resolve 32bits of dynamic range it would kill you instantly!

G

Thats a little drastic, but I think I see your point....
 
 

 

[gregorio]

Thats a little drastic, but I think I see your point...

In digital audio each bit of resolution provides roughly 6dB of dynamic range. The more resolution the greater the dynamic range, 16bit x 6 (dB) = 96dB of dynamic range (the dynamic range of a CD). 24bit x 6 (dB) = 144dB, 32bit x 6 (dB) = 192dB. The figure usually quoted which is loud enough to cause death is 160dB - 180dB, 192dB is four times louder than 180dB! I would imagine that would cause pretty much instantaneous death. Drastic I agree but entirely consistent with the facts.

Of course in reality it's way beyond impossible to resolve 32bit resolution and even if it were possible, any record label would be sued out of existence if it actually released a recording which would kill everyone who listened to it.

Just shows you though how utterly ridiculous the marketing of DACs and digital audio has become.

G

 

[Bojamijams]

I don't care for balanced or upgraded USB, so the D1 I got used is still going to be the one I would want.  Hopefully they decide to keep making the D1.  Offer a cheaper version of the D2 for many of us who would always use COAX and never use Balanced. 

 

[agoston.berko]

Quote:

I don't care for balanced or upgraded USB, so the D1 I got used is still going to be the one I would want.  Hopefully they decide to keep making the D1.  Offer a cheaper version of the D2 for many of us who would always use COAX and never use Balanced. 

YES SIR !
 

 

[Jap]

Quote:

I don't care for balanced or upgraded USB, so the D1 I got used is still going to be the one I would want.  Hopefully they decide to keep making the D1.  Offer a cheaper version of the D2 for many of us who would always use COAX and never use Balanced. 

If they continue to offer the single ended D1, it would be nice if they upgraded the USB. I'm not crazy about balanced setups either, but the upgraded USB can be very handy.

 

[Szadzik]

 
Quote:

If they continue to offer the single ended D1, it would be nice if they upgraded the USB. I'm not crazy about balanced setups either, but the upgraded USB can be very handy.

I think that is their main goal - getting better USB implementation in the new DAC.
 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Its ashamed that they decided to halt production for such an insignificant part of the Dac. USB is the achilles heel of modern Dacs. Putting so much effort into optimizing the interface between a piece of stereo equipment and a computer should not afford such high priority. Not so much as to completely stop sales for months on end.
 
Each day that passes is a potential sale lost, each purchase of a competitors product during this production halt is another sales lost. It is going to take them a very long time to recoup the money lost if you factor in potential sales. Keep in mind that even though the market seems infinite there is a point of saturation, this is when all Dac sales will start to slow. As it stands many people have multiple Dacs in their homes, and like computers there will be a time when people will say "You know, that new design looks nice but I already have too many...".

It's not insignificant, and you have to think about how many sales are lost because Anedio cannot compete on that feature with say the EE Minimax Dac Plus, or the Calyx DAC, or the W4S DAC-2. The CD transport is the past, and the computer or music server is the future, and as a manufacturer you'd better be able to compete. I do agree that stopping sales on the old model before the new model is ready is a bit weird though, Cambridge still sells the original DM along side the new DM Plus which has asynchronous USB along with a bunch of other upgrades.
 
I don't think the saturation point for DACs is that much of an issue. If I were a company like Spectral, I'd be a lot more worried about who is going to keep buying my SDR-4000 which has no digital inputs and is an evolutionary dead end. Time for a new DAC, guys. I'll buy it.

 

[glenda]

Quote:

I'm seeing more and more of this, it's really getting out of hand. It's not a bit misleading, it's very misleading just look at some of what it says in the link provided:
Under specifications "SNR: 125 dB, A-weighted, 2.2 Vrms": - Firstly they have deliberately used dBA which manipulates the results by at least 2 or more dB. So the absolute best the unit can achieve is actually 123dB. But earlier the advertising says "delivers an unprecedented DNR of up to 135dB". So in other words, 12dB of the dynamic range exists below the noise floor of the unit and therefore cannot be heard! If that is not enough they say "the Calyx uses 8 Sabre 32bit converters!" So in actual fact the unit should be capable of 192dB dynamic range but obviously isn't. In fact, this unit cannot even resolve 21bits of resolution, let alone 32bits.
The problem facing DAC manufacturers is that even 16bit offers roughly 1000 times more dynamic range than the most dynamic CD or LP ever commercially released. DACs can be produced which are perfectly linear within the hearing spectrum. Manufacturers can't produce a product which is better than perfectly linear, so what are they to do to sell product? They only have two choices, produce a perfectly linear DAC at a lower price or produce DACs with ridiculous claims about specifications and then use marketing to convince consumers that these completely outrageous specifications are in some way better. Do you actually know what a dynamic range of 32bit would sound like? Let's hope you never do, because if it was actually possible to resolve 32bits of dynamic range it would kill you instantly!
G

This has always been my thoughts on the subject to a key.  But was recently proposed that should the 144dB figure be attenuated as it typically is,  does that leave a hirez DAC with more indivudial steps or "resolution" than a 16 bit.  Hard to communicate what I am saying butcould work out the math.  I think there may be some more to it, than saying 32 bits x 6db = 192dB,   it could mean that at 90 dB there are many more levels and hence detail ?   Sort of akin to a stepped attenuator with 40 steps vs one with 1000 ?  Or is this not right?
 

 

[project86]

I think James from Anedio would be the first to admit that the transition from D1 to "replacement for D1" could have gone more smoothly. As a small family owned company, they were basically faced with 2 possibilities:
 
1) Spend a bunch more on another production run of the original, which they had not originally anticipated having to do. Apparently the enclosure was causing big issues - it cost more to make than planned and the quality control was not acceptable despite having tried several different manufacturers. 
 
 
2) Move forward on the update and try to be as quick as possible. 
 
If they did option 1, that would leave very little time for designing the next version. It's not like they have an army of people to do assembly while James whips up new designs. The USB upgrade was already in the works, so it seemed to be the logical choice to push forward. You know it must have been a tough decision, cutting off potential income for a few months. But I think they made the right move. As someone mentioned above, you have to figure that people are looking at the feature lists growing on competing products.
 
There should be an announcement coming soon. I can't say any more at the moment. 

 

[Szadzik]

They better come out with the new version as I can only wait for a month more and then will simply buy something else.

 

[Jap]

Quote:

I think James from Anedio would be the first to admit that the transition from D1 to "replacement for D1" could have gone more smoothly. As a small family owned company, they were basically faced with 2 possibilities:
 
1) Spend a bunch more on another production run of the original, which they had not originally anticipated having to do. Apparently the enclosure was causing big issues - it cost more to make than planned and the quality control was not acceptable despite having tried several different manufacturers. 
 
 
2) Move forward on the update and try to be as quick as possible. 
 
If they did option 1, that would leave very little time for designing the next version. It's not like they have an army of people to do assembly while James whips up new designs. The USB upgrade was already in the works, so it seemed to be the logical choice to push forward. You know it must have been a tough decision, cutting off potential income for a few months. But I think they made the right move. As someone mentioned above, you have to figure that people are looking at the feature lists growing on competing products.
 
There should be an announcement coming soon. I can't say any more at the moment. 

 
That is a general problem with small (read that: tiny) high-end companies trying to compete in a fast-moving technological industry. Buyers have to be aware of this and make hard decisions whether to wait for a strong dedicated effort or settle for the offerings of what may well be an inferior product elsewhere. From what I have observed from Anedio's website and from the responses of obviously satisfied customers, I can wait awhile, especially since I am not in a huge rush. I have been there and done that with a few high-end small companies dedicated to cutting edge excellence before. The final result has always greatly offset the wait times for this buyer.
 
I am gradually transitioning my focus from building a high-end portable audio system to building a mid-end to high-end home system. The fantastic Oppo Blu-ray Disc player BDP-93 (~$500---see http://www.oppodigital.com/) will probably serve as my source for all things audio & video in the future. This single-ended 3D Blu-ray disk player serves as a veritable Swiss Army knife of audio/video playback for both physical & wireless media. Later on when I add the Anedio D2, the BDP-93 will be relegated to the role of transport for both audio/video systems.
 
Oppo also produces the balanced BDP-95 (~$1300---see http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-95/), based on the same ES9018 Sabre Reference 32-bit DAC employed in the Anedio D1 (and, presumably, D2). I suspect Oppo is not nearly as strong on the audio side as they are on the video side, and I prefer to combine Oppo's video expertise with Anedio's audio expertise to yield killer audio/video systems. 

 
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Szadzik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
They better come out with the new version as I can only wait for a month more and then will simply buy something else.

 
Everybody has to make their own choices on how long they are willing to wait. 

 

[grokit]

Quote:

I suspect Oppo is not nearly as strong on the audio side as they are on the video side, and I prefer to combine Oppo's video expertise with Anedio's audio expertise to yield killer audio/video systems. 

 
Or you could get the audio hot-rodded on the Oppo:

 

 

[Jap]

Quote:

Quote:
 
Or you could get the audio hot-rodded on the Oppo:
 

 
 

 
I'm not sure what you are referring to. There is an upgrade board for the Oppo BDP-93 that would raise the audio quality. There is also the balanced BDP-95.
 
I don't recognize the unit attached to the Oppo player you depicted above. Why should that be superior to an Anedio D1/D2?