Amping the 600 ohm Beyers.....
Jun 23, 2007 at 1:19 AM Post #16 of 62
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Definitely need to replace the stock tubes with Electro-Harmonix tubes, though.


Yep. The stock tubes definitely need replacing. The EH's are also much cheaper than NOS American stuff too...
tongue.gif
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 3:41 AM Post #17 of 62
Just outta curiousity...

If SuperMacro LE can push 600ohm Beyers, Supermicro & Supermini should be able to do the same, right?

Also, what's the benefit of more impedance. Helps present a darker background, right? And this is a darker background for all sources right (thanks to the amp)??

-Thanks in advance!
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 3:49 AM Post #18 of 62
My micro doesn't push the 600 Ohm Beyers that well, I think you need something a bit more powerful.
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 6:57 AM Post #19 of 62
Quote:

Originally Posted by grndslm /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Just outta curiousity...

If SuperMacro LE can push 600ohm Beyers, Supermicro & Supermini should be able to do the same, right?

Also, what's the benefit of more impedance. Helps present a darker background, right? And this is a darker background for all sources right (thanks to the amp)??

-Thanks in advance!




the Super Macro LE can't push 600 Ohm cans as hard as many CD player's line out - it is simply the wrong application

the higher cell count Xin amps would be better than the 4 cell, low drive impedance optimized Macro LE

the highest V you can get with common portables as I outlined above is however barely enough to give satifactory headroom for 600 DT880 with music having realistic dynamic range

playing jazz at comfortably loud - but less than real world levels - gives me well over 100 dB peaks with a calibrated sound level meter with seconds long time constant - instantaneous peaks must be approaching 110 dB

the Super Macro IV Le would be very objectionably clipping at 102 dB or less with the 600 Ohm DT880

I don't understand the choice of the 600 Ohm special order option for the DT880 by people who don't understand the basic implications of that choice, they would be much better off in terms of available, low cost and fully capable amplification options if they checked the other box: 32 Ohms
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 2:36 PM Post #20 of 62
While I agree with much of what you said jcx, if you listen very long to headphones that loud, you are not going to be in this hobby very long, as you will be as deaf as a stone. I know you've been around head-fi a long time - I'm surprised you listen to headphones at that volume. Even with Jazz, which will have a much higher peak-to-mean ratio than rock will, it's still too loud to be safe, IMO. Mean levels need to be 80dbA or less.

Nonetheless, I do agree that trying to drive 600 ohm cans with a small portable amp isn't really a sensible thing to do.
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 2:43 PM Post #21 of 62
I've decided to pull the trigger on the DT880 600ohm as soon as some funds roll in (which should be very soon).
My WA6 oughta be able to drive them without any problem, right?
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 2:54 PM Post #22 of 62
The choice of 600 ohms is just people trying to think ahead. It is pretty universally accepted, and even suggested by Beyer themeselves, that the 600 ohm option has the best SQ (if properly driven, obviously). So someone (me) trying to make the best long-term decision is going to be drawn towards the 600 ohm option despite not currently having an amp that will get the job done.

If I didn't understand the basic implications of the choice I wouldn't be here trying to figure out what specific degrees of amplification will work with my choice. You say amping 600 ohm Beyers cannot be done well by a certain amp that someone else has actually listened to and enjoyed. Sorry, but I will take actual listening from someone who seems pretty experienced and reasonable over your "constant level cell count decibel peaking" test results every time. Does it mean that I won't ultimately buy the "right" "application appropriate" amp? I probably will, but it may be a few months down the road and I may try a Hornet first. Sorry if that isn't scientific enough to make my choice a reasonable one in your eyes.....
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 3:10 PM Post #23 of 62
I hadn't read what Skylab said until I posted. That encapsulates why the numbers, which I already admitted are beyond my current level of understanding in this area, are less important to me than real world experience. What jcx said seemed sensible to me but I never would have known that he was using volume levels that would likely be irrelevant to me, though I do understand that volume isn't really the point here.

I started the thread to help me assess what is possible and reasonable. Ultimately a solid home amp will be the best choice and I am pretty certain that I will eventually get there. But I also typically try and buy used so my choice might just not show up for a while, so knowing that I can try a Hornet or something like it and not be making too much of an interim compromise is information I am glad to have received. (and I bet the Hornet won't suck with my er4s....)
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 3:28 PM Post #24 of 62
I have a RSA HR-2 Driving the 600OHM Beyer DT880's

Solid state but a very natural tubey sound and plenty of omph!

Great amp for these cans!

if fact the Hornet will drive them on high gain (granted not as well) but with no distortion what so ever just gotta dial er up to about 3:00
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 3:44 PM Post #25 of 62
Trose49 (sorry I can't help myself)
Who's your Daddy?
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 3:47 PM Post #26 of 62
Quote:

Originally Posted by BushGuy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Trose49 (sorry I can't help myself)
Who's your Daddy?



very_evil_smiley.gif


I must be the wicked step-son cause I do not own a:

Stealth
Raptor
B-52
Apache

Get my point!!!
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 4:24 PM Post #27 of 62
actually I'm not using dangerous listening levels - really carefully read the Headwize "Preventing Hearing Damage When Listening With Headphones" article
http://headwize.com/articles/hearing_art.htm

the average level I was using as an example was ~ 90 dB - perhaps I should have said "more than comfortably loud" - but way less than live club levels and quite safe at the hour or so I might devote to a critical listening session - not as background music

the +100 dB peaks were <10% of the set’s running time as the brass punched out the theme, the percussion must have been pushing the instantaneous peaks ( for only milliseconds ) 10dB higher

the OSHA exposure limits allow 90 dB for 8 hr/day, 2 hr for 100 dB

Osha isn't the final word on hearing safety but I'm staying at least 4x below their daily exposure time limit for any level - and not freeing up the time for a critical listening session every day

I would be very critical of the amp/headphone mismatch if I tried to listen with 600 Ohm DT880 paired with the SuperMacro IV LE


It isn't obvious from the published info I've found if there really are meaningful differences in the DT880 sound with different Z coils - when driven with amps that have the appropriate range of I,V output for the load Z

the idealized view of coil Z is that of a transformer - changing the turns ratio while using the same weight of conductor doesn't change the transducer response - only the relation of I,V at the terminals

it isn't clear from the Beyer site if they are doing this and we're just seeing some marketing copy writer's misstatement, or if they are really changing electro-acoustic design by changing voice coil mass - frequency response and impedance graphs would be helpful


but giving weight to head-fi discussions on the issue seems a little naive

1st of all I dismiss any anecdotal commentary by anyone who doesn't have both versions in their hand - no "I heard it at the meet last month..."

and it would be awkward but it is absolutely necessary to Measure and Match spl levels before any listening comparison can be considered reliable - the same system at different loudness levels is perceived to have different frequency balance - see the Fletcher-Munson curves

Then I would like to see the production distribution of driver detailed frequency response - it is likely that even serial production cans have discernable small variations in their frequency response that would allow individual headphones to be distinguished by high resolving listening tests - which makes answering the question of whether any reported differences between differing Z versions is truly attributable to the Z difference more difficult

and of course good amplification shouldn't add anything to the sound but it is likely that many tube amps do change the sound and 600 Ohm cans are much more likely to found on tube amp setups - adding again to the uncontrolled variables that could be expected to interfere with even skilled, but individual, uncontrolled (in the scientific sense of not having a reproducible reference) anecdotal commentary on the headphone's sound


"The numbers" can't tell you what will sound good but the very basics of how loud can this amplifier get with this headphone without clipping (and how loud it needs to get to reproduce music) shouldn't be dismissed/ignored if you really want to get serious about the more subtle issues everyone here seems to feel so important
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 4:58 PM Post #28 of 62
Thank you jcx, for your copious post in support of my few words.
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 5:59 PM Post #29 of 62
I directly compared both the DT880 and DT990 in the 250 and 600 ohm versions, as I have owned both. There is no question that the 600 ohm versions sound better, with decent (meaning non-limiting) amplification. That doesn't make them a good choice for everyone, but they do sound better.
 
Jun 23, 2007 at 7:12 PM Post #30 of 62
I will be "naive", but also grateful, when I say thank you to Skylab for his commentary and reviews of the 880/990 with different ohms and I will display my possible desire to make unreasonable/felonious amping choices when I thank Trose for his description of his experience with the Hornet (though I guess he must have napped during the clipping....).
 

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