[Uncle Erik]

If you want to see tube linearity, pull up the www.nj7p.org datasheets for whatever tube you're interested in. You can see the curves; they're all different. A copy of the RCA Receiving Tube manual also has them. Linearity depends on how you bias them.

I've also picked up a lot from the books by Bruce Rozenblit and Morgan Jones, the old Navy NEETS manuals, and various texts available at www.pmillett.com.

Distortion is not the be-all-end-all of amplification. Humans can't hear it that well and read up on even versus off order harmonics. Tubes distort in a much more musical way than solid state does. These figures get beaten to death in debates, but the truth is people enjoy the sound. DHTs aren't terribly accurate, but everyone seems to like what they do to the mids. Vocals can sound more real than real life. Accurate, no. Enjoyable, yes! No reproduction will be as good as a live event. I see reproduction as a separate experience. If a 2A3 pleases me, then I'll use it.

One of the wonderful things about tubes is that there are hundreds of thousands of variations. You can get exactly what you want.

As for an accurate amp, I really love the Zana Deux. First, and foremost, it gets the power supply right. Four chokes, external transformer, and exceptional filtering. The 6C33C tubes are run with a nicely low output impedance, something like 5-6 Ohms in an OTL configuration. The signal is taken off the plate, which is a nice variation from the usual and sounds more musical. A little feedback is added, but not much. Its output is linear out to 60kHz. All a result of careful engineering and tube selection. Moreover, it's entirely point-to-point, so I'll be able to keep it running for a lifetime.

And I do agree that solid state can be excellent. I have a Dynalo, M^3 and CK2III around. Upcoming projects include a 3 channel Beta22, DynaMid and DynaMight. Also a few more tube amps of varying topologies and tubes. I want to experience it all. But for long-term use, I'm with tubes. Any of the solid state amps will be doorstops if I can't get replacement chips for them.

As for the Dynalo, there is a company making new ones for $300 right now. The boards and chips are available through AMB if you want to roll your own - I built one for $120 a few years back. Also, there was a Gilmore Lite (same thing) in the For Sale Forum earlier today.

 

[mikeaj]

Thanks, I appreciate the thorough response.
 
I definitely agree about even order harmonics vs. odd order harmonics, but why tolerate them in the first place?  But point taken that people can't hear lower levels of distortion that well.  This is especially true in certain parts of the audio range, and true if they're used to hearing that distortion.  It's not the only factor by a large margin.
 
How often do people have properly-designed and constructed solid state amps die?  Unless you're using really underspecified parts for the placements in the circuits, most op amps, buffers, relays, etc. should be pretty reliable with the relatively low power levels involved with headphone amps.  Cheap electrolytics can have pretty short lifetimes of a few years (if not months) in higher temperature, but I don't think any of these designs use low-end Chinese caps.  But I suppose that all those components may not be that reliable when used in some of the class A designs with really high supply rails like +- 15V and above though.  Seems a bit silly to me, since pretty much no headphones aside from electrostatics actually need above say 10V rms (generally much less) before blowing your ears out.
 
I'm not very convinced by replacement chips (or suitably specified replacements) becoming unavailable unless the amp was designed with some pretty exotic parts.  Again, that probably depends on the design.
 
To me it seems like a lot of the appeal for tube amps comes from being able to tweak for different performance, rather than being most efficient or practical.  Of course there is some value into tweaking for the sake of tweaking, and tweaking if you want to find a certain sound, but this is a "is gear the means to an end" vs. "is gear a focus itself" kind of debate.  If it's taken as the means to an end, the question for me becomes "why bother?"

 

[colmustard]

This is all very interesting, thank you for your responses.
 
It's sounding to me that it is a smarter move in the long run to just go straight for the tubes. I want to get the most engaging musical experience out of my amp and distortion means nothing to me. I'll be taking another look at those woo audio tubes to go along with the PS Audio DLIII.
 
This means that I'll have to up my budget dramatically, so I guess if I go this route I will have to save up a bit more.
 
However I'm starting to wonder, is this really going to be worth throwing down over a grand for? How much better are my hd650s or k701s going to sound on this type of equipment compared to my e7/e9? This is alot of money to shell out on something I'm relatively unfamliar with.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

However I'm starting to wonder, is this really going to be worth throwing down over a grand for? How much better are my hd650s or k701s going to sound on this type of equipment compared to my e7/e9? This is alot of money to shell out on something I'm relatively unfamliar with.

From another point of view it makes sense to invest in a good sounding source and adequate amplification now, for both the headphones you own and new ones you'll acquire you know you're getting the most out of them... rather than wondering what you're missing with the cheaper alternative. My most recent purchase is my DAC, I kinda wish I could go back and listen to all my past headphones now that I have a good source. You will hear a difference with a good source, especially the lush body from a tube amp. Maybe this will make you buy new phones next... it's a slippy slope!

 

[colmustard]

Alright I've weighed out the prices and I will take a chance with the bitfrost, as well regarded as the DLIII is, I just can't justify it's price if I want to get tubes.
 
I will either purchase the valhalla or the lyr with the bitfrost. I'm assuming the lyr is an upgrade over the valhalla and for only $100 more I think I will go with that.
 
I've never setup anything like this so I'm assuming that I should be given everything I need to connect the bitfrost to the amp? Also will I be better off using the optical or usb connection?
 
 
edit: I see that there are options to order with different voltage & tubes, what is recommended?

 

[MalVeauX]

Quote:

However I'm starting to wonder, is this really going to be worth throwing down over a grand for? How much better are my hd650s or k701s going to sound on this type of equipment compared to my e7/e9? This is alot of money to shell out on something I'm relatively unfamliar with.

Heya,
 
I think you're not going to notice a difference that is worth $1000 between your E9 and a tube amp. The E9 is difficult to even tell from the Matrix M-Stage in an A-B test. A good solid state should essentially sound the same and add nothing to your sound that shouldn't be there. A tube will add stuff to recordings that was not there (bloomy sound, tubey sound, echos which people call increased sound stage, warmth, etc). I have a tube amp too, I love it, but not on every headphone and certainly not for my detail headphones but I do use it on my Pro 900. We have a similar set of headphones which is why I bring this up. I use a solid state and a tube depending on what I'm listening to. Detail stuff like acoustic, I go to solid state on my Matrix Cube. Fun stuff, I go to my tube on the Little Dot Mk III.
 
What are you looking to hear a difference in? What do you think is going to change? The only headphones that you're likely going to hear a change, albeit likely small, in may be the K701's, simply due to a DAC change since it's so detailed and will reveal minute differences, but you might not hear anything different from those Pro 900's on the other hand (or you may). Again, it's all likely to be very slight.
 
I don't think it's worth spending $1000 to power some $200~$300 headphones. Your budget starts making me wonder if you're about to step into flagship territory and get something like the LCD2 or HD800 or Edition10 or who knows what. If that's true, then yes, get some serious source gear to power even more expensive and higher grade headphones. That makes sense.
 
I guess what I'm getting at, is I wonder if you'll know the sound difference from the Bifrost and a Valhalla/Lyr compared to a HRT Music Streamer II to your FiiO E9. Massive price difference. I think you might pick the tube out from the solid state, but beyond that, I don't think you're going to have a $1000 "wow" experience. More like, "Wait, did something change? Ok, yea, that's a little different. Hrm..."
 
I'm only being a devil's advocate about it because if you're willing to spend $1000, I would suggest you put that into a flagship headphone instead of a bunch of source gear for some $200~$300 headphone. I don't think you're going to hear a difference that justifies that spending.
 
This is merely my opinion. I'm clearly different. I have a ton of headphones and a few sources. But I tend to suggest you have more headphones for different sounds that you want, because your source isn't going to change it much, if at all, if it's a good clean source. Tubes are the only exception, which is why I have a tube amp. Once you get a decent DAC, going up the ladder is a lot of refinement and minute differences that really can't even be measured other than by listener's perception. And higher price does not necessarily mean better. A lot of it is simply novelty. But please don't take this as a negative comment, this hobby is full of this stuff and it's not supposed to be insanely cheap. I just saw a lot of red flags seeing some $1000 price tag to merely change source on a pair of K701's.
 
Very best,

 

[colmustard]

I guess I don't know what to expect from this upgrade. I've based everything off of what I've read on these forums. I consider this to be an investment for the longterm so I want to get it right. And my biggest fear is that I won't notice much of a change and if I do it's placebo. I'm really relying on more experienced user's input. Otherwise I may aswell just throw away a grand.
 
As far as my 900s go, when I'm on campus I use them with my e7 as a portable setup in the library. I won't be using them with the tubes much, and I couldn't imagine them sounding any more lush and colored anyway lol. One of the big reasons I decided it's time to upgrade my source is my hd650s. I've read so much about how well they scale with higher end setups and I guess I want to get my feet wet 

 

[colmustard]

I'm ordering the bitfrost tonight and the lyr on friday when I get my paycheck.
 
What is recommended for the optional settings? I will get the usb input unless optical is just as good and I can save myself $100. What's the difference between the 115 and 230 volt?
 
http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=7

 

[MalVeauX]

Quote:

I'm ordering the bitfrost tonight and the lyr on friday when I get my paycheck.
 
What is recommended for the optional settings? I will get the usb input unless optical is just as good and I can save myself $100. What's the difference between the 115 and 230 volt?
 
http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=7

You live in the USA, where we use 115~120 Volt. 230 Volt is Europe.
 
It has optical/spdiff in, so unless you just want USB, there's no need. A lot of people use USB to bypass using anything off a computer since the onboard digital output could be adding junk to the signal if it's just poor quality in general, even if it's just acting like a pass through. I've used USB and SPDIFF on my DAC and honestly didn't hear a difference.
 
Very best,
 

 

[colmustard]

Thank you,
 
I just placed the order and included the usb because I've had issues with sound dampening through my spdif before. My wallet already feels lighter.
 
Since the bitfrost will be here at least a week before the lyr since I've gotta re-add funds to my paypal, would I be able to hook it up with my e9?

 

[MalVeauX]

Quote:

Thank you,
 
I just placed the order and included the usb because I've had issues with sound dampening through my spdif before. My wallet already feels lighter.
 
Since the bitfrost will be here at least a week before the lyr since I've gotta re-add funds to my paypal, would I be able to hook it up with my e9?

Heya,
 
Yes, you can feed the E9. It will sound great. Make sure and do some A-B tests in fact, when you get your new amp, between the E9 and the Lyr. As in, have a friend or spouse or someone swap between the two without you looking and try to figure out consistently which one is which. It should be pretty obvious since one is solid state and one is a tube. But never the less, do it so you can see if the cost justifies what you're hearing. I say this as a devil's advocate because you may find a simple $100 E9 doing marvelous work and that the DAC was really the only change you needed. Just food for thought.
 
Very best,
 

 

[colmustard]

I didn't even notice that the bitfrost is in pre-order right now and won't ship for a few more weeks. So I guess I will have the lyr long before I have the bitfrost. How would I hook up the lyr to my e7?

 

[Connnorrr]

Quote:

I didn't even notice that the bitfrost is in pre-order right now and won't ship for a few more weeks. So I guess I will have the lyr long before I have the bitfrost. How would I hook up the lyr to my e7?

Valhalla I just got yesterday came with a 1/8 to RCA cable but I don't know 100% if the Lyr will come with the same cable. My current setup is hooked up as: USB > E7 > 1/8 to RCA > Valhalla. I can grab a quick picture if you'd like.

 

[tme110]

http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-L7-Line-Dock-Cable/dp/B004QVNS0S/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1313169935&sr=8-5
Quote:

I didn't even notice that the bitfrost is in pre-order right now and won't ship for a few more weeks. So I guess I will have the lyr long before I have the bitfrost. How would I hook up the lyr to my e7?