[BobMajor]

I've been following this discussion on AudioCircle but can't say that I fully understand all the technical discussions that have occurred there.
I think the general take on this is that Amarra if it is inplemented perfectly is somewhat better than the PC's best implementation.
The whole field of computer audio is in dynamic flux. You can get spectacular performance from some systems at a fraction of the cost of equivalent sounding CD players.
I recently bought a ridiculously expensive USB cable for my system (Ridge Street Audio Alethius! cable) and it tremendously improved the performance.
Steve Nugent at Empirical Audio is constantly checking on what gives the absolute best sound. I almost think that if he found somebody else's equipment that was somewhat better than his that he would buy it for his own use and redouble his already extreme focus on improving the sound he gets from his own systems. He changes the best he offers more than once a year so the bar is constantly being raised and if you have to have the best then it can get quite expensive.
For now I'm content with my EA Offramp Turbo 2 into CI-Audio VDA-2 DAC. I'm sure that within a few years I'll feel I have to upgrade to one of Steve's more expensive options.

 

[Pale Rider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobMajor /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is an extensive discussion of Amarra over on AudioCircle: Amarra testing

Read through the full thread, and related ones including here. I would say it still leaves room for some "mystery." One thing--and I think krmathis you or someone alluded to this earlier, i.e., that the demo reaches deep into the system files for parts of its installation--that I had preliminarily concluded is that there is some level of bypass of Core Audio, but there is enough info here and on AudioCircle to suggest that it is not a complete bypass. However, on that thread, Tuckers claims that it is only with Sonic hardware that Core Audio is bypassed. Whether he means "fully" or "partially" is unclear. Anyway, looking forward to trying the demo. Will have to convert some files back to AIFF or WAV.

In the meantime, for a few bucks more than Amarra, I am starting to think of putting my money on the Pace Car first. Mode 3 of the Pace Car works with AppleTV which, from a GUI perspective, I still find the most pleasant and convenient way to listen to music.

 

[Pale Rider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif who would have thought such a thing..

Not trying to post flame-bait, but I am not so shocked. First, to be fair, that was one assessment that was only inconsistently borne out by others, in part because it wasn't the purpose of the post, though for the sake of this discussion, let's accept it as true.

Second, note that later in that same thread, others said that the software-only iteration of Amarra does not bypass CoreAudio, thus adding to the confusion. And again suggesting that the quoted post is inaccurate.

But most importantly, you're comparing apples to oranges, so to speak. Forget about the dollars for a moment. I am not a PC guy, but isn't it true that things like ASIO and foobar exist to overcome audio stack [e.g., kmixer] shortcomings in WinOS? And as I have read, different foobar iterations are more or less successful at this than others [i.e., some reputedly sound better than others]. The drive for audio excellence on the PC has had a massively bigger push from the software and user community. That's a good thing. Some over at AudioCircle have posted information indicating that this evolutionary development is now illuminating shortcomings in CoreAudio on OS X. In pro audio, which is heavily Mac oriented, expensive hardware/software solutions [e.g., Sonic] have been developed to meet needs of pro audio, while the consumer front end has generally been satisfied with the iTunes front end and/or an iPod. Up until about a year ago, that was pretty much me as well. Losing, or someone stealing, my Westone UM-2s led me to Head-Fi and of course my wallet has never been the same. But I have learned a boatload, and have re-trained my ears closer to where they were when I worked in higher-end audio as a youth.

Now, as I find myself peeling the layers away and listening to the differences between DACs, etc., I am not so shocked to find that someone is finding ways to improve on Apple's CoreAudio technologies, and that in the consumer market, they haven't had much competition. Whether this might fuel a strong software/user community development remains to be seen, but I doubt it. Mac audio is pretty good, and is meeting the needs of most of its users. [BTW, same with PC audio; let's be honest, most PC users still use ordinary WinAmp or iTunes with no other changes; the average user isn't interested in figuring out foobar.] So, my guess is that this desire to "get even better" will be left to pro audio [solution already developed] and audiophiles with wallets [solution already developed finds a new market].

I find these discussions funny in a way. When something like Amarra comes out, or even the Apogee Duet with its Firewire implementation, the other platform's users complain: "Why not for us?" not even realizing how much they sound like the way Mac users felt for so many years. Conversely, the platform justifiably crows about how it already has a a solution for free that gets it what the expensive Mac solution provides. And to that, I say:"count yourself lucky." That's the great thing about having a a driven software development community [witness the iPhone versus Pre app development debate]. On both the Mac and the PC, there is a actually a ton of free and user-developed software, and some of it is good, and a lot of it is crap. It so happens that foobar is quite good. And that is sweet. Maybe, the arrival of Amarra will cause some enterprising Mac developer to provide some competition to it. Again, I doubt it; too much fruit hegemony over the platform.

But if a foobar-equivalent were to develop on the Mac platform, then this really irrelevant free-vs.-$1500 discussion would be immaterial. What is material is whether Amarra really works, because like it or not, foobar sure isn't going to make many Mac users switch to the PC platform. But one thing is clear: the arrival of Amarra illustrates foobar's value in spades.

Sorry for being so long-winded. As I said, this is not intended to be flame-bait. I use both Macs and PCs. I prefer Macs, but I sure don't hate PCs [I rather wish for all the money they make that both Microsoft and Apple were better at what they do]. On each of the platforms, some really elegant stuff has been developed by big companies, e.g., Adobe, and by individuals in the user community. In this case, on the PC, that development in the user community has way outstripped the Mac, and given the Mac penetration in pro audio, I guess it is even less surprising.

 

[leeperry]

well, there's also ASIO support on MAC...not a single media player can use that? itunes is the same on PC, it won't play through a bit-perfect renderer...except if you route it through Reclock

 

[Pale Rider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif well, there's also ASIO support on MAC...not a single media player can use that? itunes is the same on PC, it won't play through a bit-perfect renderer...except if you route it through Reclock

Yeah, iTunes is locked up fairly tight. But I have heard from more than one person, that iTunes-PC sounds significantly worse than iTunesMac. Not sure why or what that means. And yes, there are ASIO solutions for Mac, and they appear to be deployed in a fair bit of music production. I came across this note here:

But of course, you need an ASIO compatible application like Cubase, Logic Audio, Reason, Live, Digital Performer, SONAR, BPM Studio, etc. If the app supports ASIO2 you'll be able to benefit from more features. you can free download USB Audio ASIO Driver for Mac OS X 1.4.9 now.

What is missing from that list is iTunes of course. And as long as iT meets the needs of 95% of its target, it's probably not likely to. One interesting question will be to see what, if any, improvement in SQ we might see in Snow Leopard's CoreAudio improvements.

 

[leeperry]

well, you can route the PC version of itunes through Reclock, and force WASAPI or KS in Reclock...so you basically get bit-perfect audio in itunes(no KMixer massacre)

now, if their decoders lack, that's another story altogether...I know foobar decodes mp3 in 32float and processes any DSP plugin in 32float as well.

there's got to be a media player on Mac that works through ASIO 2.0 drivers

so comparing AMARRA against a bit-perfect media player would make a lot more sense...especially if the Mac Core Audio does some funky resampling.

 

[Pale Rider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif there's got to be a media player on Mac that works through ASIO 2.0 drivers so comparing AMARRA against a bit-perfect media player would make a lot more sense...especially if the Mac Core Audio does some funky resampling.

I agree about the more apt comparison. I didn't look that hard, but I did not immediately find an ASIO-capable media player.

Interestingly, while wading through another thread on AudioCircle, I came across this post:

Quote:

...back to the Music Player. It was immediately apparent that Amarra makes the audio sound different. What I listened to (from my long term demo/test playlist-16/44 AIFFs): Both simple and moderately complex acoustic music: Amandrai - Ry Cooder & Ali Farka Toure Butterfly Mornings - Hope Sandoval Detlef Schrempf - Band of Horses Burn One Down - Ben Harper Nightingale - Norah Jones And complex layered Electronic music with lots of synth and bass Turn On - Fischerspooner Youngkiss - Unai What I heard in my system: - A slight increase in the amount of body without any stridency in the highs and no loss in bass. Therefore a tad warmer. - Soundstage moved forward maybe 8-12 inches. - Detail/separation seemed slightly smudged (noticeable on percussion) - Noisefloor is identical - Output level is identical as confirmed by my Checkmate sound meter. * Amarra EQ was OFF It is a Harmonics Engine? I could describe it as a light midrange bloat. A pleasant one. Felt like switching between two different DACs. While Amarra definitely sounds different than standard iTunes, I can't say that it is better. I will try the dither option next time around. I wish the audio dropout was at about 1 minute+ instead of 30-35 seconds, but it is workable. It's nice that they provide a demo. There is also a 30 day full trial with dongle for demoing without the audio dropouts. That is $50 (credited to full purchase). I used a Wavelength Brick v2 DAC with Morter PS. The Mac used was a G5 2.3 Dual PPC with 4.5GB RAM and external FW drives on OSX 10.4. The rest of the system in link for 2 channel below. Cheers, Ed

I am looking forward to trying the demo. Depending on that outcome, I could see moving from AppleTV as my server to something like a Mac Mini. But as I mentioned earlier, I am still thinking Pace Car. Rick Cullen does some of the source mods for Empirical Audio, and he did my DL-III mods, so I have written and asked his thought on inserting the Pace Car Mod. 3 between my Apple TV and DAC. At least with the Pace Car, I know exactly what it is doing.

 

[krmathis]

I received this email from Amarra yesterday.
The Amarra Mini looks nice, although less features than the full version. Still no news about Apple Lossless support though...
Quote:

Hello, All of us here at Sonic Studio want to thank you for trying Amarra, the Ultrafidelity Computer Music Player, and hope that your Trial has been both successful and beneficial. We trust you’ve gotten an idea of why people are saying, “It’s superb! “ and “It sounds fantastic!” And now there’s Amara Mini: an entry-level version of Amarra without the EQ, volume control, output meters and such, that offers the same great bit-perfect sound at resolutions up to 96kHz. Purchase Amarra Mini for $395 at the Amarra Webstore. <snip> AMARRA INTRODUCTORY SPECIAL OFFER: For a limited time, get Amarra for just $995.00 USD. That’s $500 off the retail price of $1495, a savings of 33%!! But you must act now, this offer is good through August 15, 2009! Don’t miss out on this fantastic deal! To purchase Amarra now, please visit our Amarra Webstore. Act Now! This is a limited time offer. For questions please email us: sales@sonicstudio.com or call us at 415-460-1201. Thanks again for your interest in Sonic Studio products. With regards, Sales Team

 

[auee]

Thanks for posting this information. I am waiting for the software to support ALAC. When that occurs, I will be tempted to try this software out.

 

[dugq]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif well, you can route the PC version of itunes through Reclock, and force WASAPI or KS in Reclock...so you basically get bit-perfect audio in itunes(no KMixer massacre) now, if their decoders lack, that's another story altogether...I know foobar decodes mp3 in 32float and processes any DSP plugin in 32float as well. there's got to be a media player on Mac that works through ASIO 2.0 drivers so comparing AMARRA against a bit-perfect media player would make a lot more sense...especially if the Mac Core Audio does some funky resampling.

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but itunes on the mac is bit perfect

Design w Sound » CAS 7: iTunes PC 8.1.1.10 problem

 

[Quadrangulum]

I see it still hasn't been mentioned but about two weeks ago, Sonic Studio released the 1.0.1 Amarra revision which updated the UI. Here's a picture of my desktop running it.

Also, more news on 1.1 which will bring the FLAC and ALAC support.

Quote:

Amarra 1.1 - Next Release We are now busy starting work on Amarra 1.1 targeted for release this fall. The main features Amarra 1.1 include: • Support for Apple Lossless • Support for FLAC • Amarra Vinyl Recording and Format Converter What is Amarra Vinyl? Amarra Vinyl is a standalone application with the following capabilities : • Records Vinyl and other analog sources up to 192 kHz. • Import CDs • Burn CDs • Export Tracks into iTunes • High Quality Sample Rate Conversion

 

[Currawong]

If they support Apple Lossless with Mini, then I might seriously consider it. The Mini version is just the player, without any other features (no EQ etc).

 

[leeperry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugq /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but itunes on the mac is bit perfect Design w Sound » CAS 7: iTunes PC 8.1.1.10 problem

hah, nice link!

 

[Quadrangulum]

The Mini version sounds like it's going to be a steal.

I'd lose my complete version in favor of it if I didn't have so many Reference Recordings HRx files.

 

[tuckers]

The Mini will support any new file formats that Sonic supports.