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Yea, this forum has quite a high percentage of young users. Beats, skullcandy and ipods obviously have an appeal to kids, so I think the moderators press that we all use softer language- makes sense![/size]
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Actually that's an important point in itself. Clearly these 'kids' (hopefully!) haven't got the resources to get their fingers on the £££££ stax sr009 and play with high $$$$$$ end huge dacs and amps, soldering and swapping capacitors and what not..... BUT there's plenty, plenty, for them to get stuck into in this hobby.[/size]
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You may see often the 'welcome to headfi, sorry for your wallet' introduction that experienced members give to newbies. That never means that one has to spend loads of money to get a awesome sounding setup. It only ever refers to the fact that this stuff is an ADDICTION. You just itch to hear what this headphone, that headphone, this amp, that dac sound like and have fun comparing them, collecting and selling equipment whilst all at the same time enojoying music more and more. That's where your wallet suffers- it's the addiction.[/size]
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The reason why i mentioned the cost of my other headphones near me and the cost of the k550 was only to demonstrate that fact- the price tag isn't resemblant of sq. There's a point where you reach called the infamous diminishing returns point. For most headfiers, with the most recommended of the current crop of stuff, this is about £200 for amp/ dac/ headphone/ iem and after this point to reach a better sound you have to pay a lot lot more for a real improvement if there is one available! It always feels like you've paid much much more for the sq than is deserved unless you've got literally £1,000's cash lying around doing nothing. I always advise all newer members to approach them prices only if they know what they are doing or have a bottomless pit of cash. I guess the market of open headphones is more linear than closed. I mean say if you a high performing midrange amp/dac and have one of the ~£250 hd650, hd600, q701, ad900....Nearly all headfiers would agree that these are outperformed sonically by the ~£900 Beyer T1, Audeze lcd2, hifiman he5 le, senn hd800.... [/size]
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Move onto closed phones, and it's not quite the same story. In my view there's been general lack in quality, maybe from a lack of demand i don't know. £200 shure 940's outperform £800 T5p's for me. I regret not having much time with the £400 denon d5k as i'm quite sure these i'd find outperforming the £600 d7k's. The d7k's high mid/high has quite a nasty sharp agressive and thin tinge to it AND it's midrange is a touch more recessed than the d5k which didn't have near as much of a problem in the high range. d7k easily beats the d5k in the bass range though, but because of these highs which become really fatiguing fast for me, I'd recommend the d5k over the d7k. Both have the same amping requirements by the way (very very little by the way!!). The ed8 emits a sound nowhere near the price mark. No way. Hence some of the biggest contributers/ administrators on headfi call this a shiny upgrade to a beats by dre headphone- $300 dollar sound dressed in a $1000 outfit. Stuff like the k550, denon d2k, shure 840, ultrasone pro 900 hit the mark of a great purchase value wise if you like what sound they are able to give you. [/size]
Another point about cost. Compared to many other addictions/hobbies, it's not expensive at all. Smoking, resturant dining (fear of home cooking), clothes fashion, latest pc's, cars, and many more all involve spending chunks of money on stuff that has very little resale value if at all. Virtually all that's audiophile stamped has a high to very high (often even in the regions of making a profit) resale value. There's all the time headfi stuff of all prices going on ebay. Of course headfi has it's own very well managed selling/buying facility. Only the nich within a nich market of custom iem earphones have a notorious problem in this regard. Understandable.
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Well. a BIG thanks to Electropop. Derbigpr, and of course CSM. I have a pair of 550's on the way from Amazon because of this thread. It is my first foray into headphone hifi and you guys have all given me enough confidence (together with some trepidation) to take the plunge.
Just a few silly observations/questions. One, I can't STAND plastic. Not too fond of wood either. That's stupid, but just me. And besides, look at the difference the aluminum cups have apparently made in the case of the Senn Amperior with decreased resonance.
Two, it seems HPs generate a lot of debate (controversy?) until the $1K threshold is approached. And then the question becomes one of value and diminishing returns.
Three, I don't live in a small city, but it is certainly not as cosmopolitan as the city of my birth (NYC). It is simply NOT possible to find a shop willing to provide meaningful listening sessions with any of these higher quality HPs much less the garbage. Even Best Buy is on the verge of bankruptcy. That leaves the internet and forums for headphone advice, choice, and purchase. Look at the Headroom business model. They give very slick verbal descriptions of each and every HP and it really can suck you in. They seem to be doing very well. The point is you guys are NOT wasting your time. You help new people like me and provide a real service. Look at Tyll's reviews, can't wait to go to a meet and shake his hand. Love to buy you a pint (or two) as well
CSM.
Four, is a HP at this price point worth recabling? Tyll took apart a Pioneer DJ 2000 which he praised highly. Just the SIZE of the wiring going across the headband turned me off. Cheap cable for DIGITAL transmission? Fine! NOT fine for analog transmission. So, is it worth it? Also to use a balanced or unbalanced amp, cabling, etc. The price of these mods/choices can add up very quickly.
Five, what DAC/amp to use. If good enough, should be able to do double duty as a home unit as well. I was looking at Headamp Pico and RSA Predator. Pico is supposed to be "warm," Predator "analytic." Would the warmer choice help/offset the 550?
Six, by "fun" I mean a HP that wants to make you listen to your music as opposed to putting it on the shelf. I would rather have 2-3-4(max) quality units over many cheaper ones.
Lastly (sorry), what the nwavguy says on his blog influenced me greatly. I have a very substantial scientific/math background and respect the value of measurements. BUT I don't over-respect them. I believe people will put very good (but low priced) electrical components in a very pretty little anodized box and sell it for gobs of money without it really providing an audible or discernable benefit. That is why I value the shootouts/comparison tests, but even these can spark controversy. People are starting to manufacture avguy's designs (JDS Labs, Acoustic) and I can't wait to see what the response is. And I tend NOT to trust the quality and QC of Fiio. Right or wrong?
Sorry to be so long winded, but these are questions that have arisen during the course of my research and would appreciate input on any or all of them.
Once again thanks, can't wait to get the cans and try them. Only have a Bithead, Shure 530s, and an Ultrasone Zino (bought for the kids) for comparison, but I have to start somewhere!
Cheers! Rob
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1) plastic: don't worry about materials that much. Shure 840's are made of what feels like nasty plastic and cheap pleather pads. Like a £20 pound build. A few ultrasone cans come across in the same manner- as these are designed to fit in a studio with the look. Wooden ones like the denons or audio technicas are meant for home use really and so their design hints at that. Obviously wood is meant to have better acoustic properties than quite a few other materials so this is the main reason they use it. Looks really come second. Mind you the ed8, k550 and d7k are all EXCEEDINGLY pretty as far as headphones go. Kind of take it for granted after a while, but the k550 really looks awesome, is built of awesome materials and impresses on that front.[/size]
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2) Value and diminishing returns: i've talked about this in the beginning.[/size]
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3) Meets and demoing. Some very experienced headfiers prefer to spend money going to meets rather than to buy headphones. They must be really good, although I haven't been to any yet. Yea, i take it that you're in the usa in which case there is a lot more opportunity for you to audition stuff than me. I think places like japan have some awesome places to audtion stuff- Hi end audiophile stuff. But for everyone else, especially in the uk and smaller countries, there's little out there. Wait wait, i don't really expect there to be much anyway- it's a very nich hobby this is. Excluding people who just spend big on anything as the've got the money to and only including those that are active audiophiles, just give it some thought and research and you'll find that it's a very nich market hobby.[/size]
4) Recabling: unless this is part of the fun one derives from this hobby, then I'd say there's no point to recable in most situations. If your talking about plugging a headphone in a £20,000 setup of a cd player, cables, dac, amp and what not, then it's just natural that one would want to recable!! But the cable on the k550 is a lovely, lightish, flexible, convenient, not tangle prone,.....Why would one want to recable it? Improvement in sound?? I've used (not expensive) audiophile cables for some headphones that had a removable cable feature. I didn't notice anything much really.
5) Portable Amp/dac
IMPORTANT
I think you've fallen in an uncovered pit that unfortunately happens to a few newbies. Okay, let me explain.
It's exceedingly important to note the specific headfi market that your delving in with each purchase. It comes naturally after time and experience, but at first it can be confusing. Some things RAPIDLY develop with time. Others dont.
Full size headphones of the past, lets say of 10, 20 or even 30 years in the past stand up well to the headphones of today. Technology of headphones (full size) hasn't really travelled that far. AKG's current best open headphone that they sell first popped its head out 20 years ago (or more I think). The k271 came around a similar time. Senn hd600/hd650 have also been around for ages. Some say the best ever produced headphone was the sony mdr r10 or the akg k1000 or the senn he90 or a similar completely extinct headphone. There are new ones being produced that stand toe to toe with headphones of the past, but that's exactly my point.
With portable amps, what's made now smashes what was made in the past. It's moreso the case with earphones. Also to some extent with portable headphones. In all three catergories recent years have seen a continual increase in demand hence a continual increase in the levels of quality available at better and better prices.
headfier Skylab used to have a comparison thread on different portable amplifiers but scrapped it as the amount of development made such a thread with ratings quite redundant. When you're looking at these threads the first thing to look at is the date they were posted. Are people still raving about the amp/headphone, is it still in production? If not, move to something else.
My view- stick with the fiio's for now. Tried and tested by the thousands. I saw a unit today at a major high street retailer (maplins, fiio e5). That is a remarkable testiment to the durability of their products. They sell in the hundreds of thousands. Don't worry about Q/C- they're fine in that regard. These are awesome performers. If you want just a portable amp to use from the computer or your ipod, then the fiio e11 (£60) is great. If you want a complete dac/amp mini setup to use with your computer only then the fiio e10 (£60) is a killer performer. If you want the best of both- so in effect both these fiio's functionalities in one small unit, with improvements, then the £100 fiio e17 would be ideal.
There's no point in spending much more to tell the truth with very portable setups like these- i've tried the udac's one ray samuels amp (predator i think) and an ibasso d4. The fiio's outshine them all in many ways.
A desktop dac/ amp setup is the way to go in general if you want sound quality.
6) Fun? What else is the point....
Fair enough. I know what you mean. All newbies have to ask themselves what they want from palces like headfi.
Person 1
I just want a headphone that sounds decent for everyday ipod/mac casual listening. I haven't that much time, money and interest dedicated for this hobby.
If so then someone is likely to be satisfied by say an ath m50 (for closed headphone listening) or say an ath ad700, senn hd598 and a small amp/dac to go with it (a fiio will do perfectly). That's it. Great sq, little time wasted, and all for around £200. 100% satisfied.
Now when's the ipad 3 coming out. I need, yes need one of these to help me survive.
Person 2
After hearing some decent headphones, I want to know of and reach the best SQ setup I can get. Yea, I've a budget but I want the best for this budget and maybe upgrade when I know more.
Fasten your seatbelt my friend, cos you may be in for a ride here. This is the classic audiophile (disease?) taking over. I expect such a person to go through multiple headphone setups and learn more and more with experience. There has never really been a single headphone that is awesome for all genres of music- hence people have multiple setups.
7) errrr, Mathematics?
I'm not from a scientific background myself. I'm from a purely mathematical one!! I don't really like studying science too much, a bit boring with far too many generalisations. Okay, as this isn't a particularly active thread, no one will mind if we go off topic here.
As you must know, pure mathematics forms the complete centre of science. No arguing. It is. Nice.
It's the heart of science. Lets just consider two arms if you like that it develops into- physics and statistics. Again, as you know physicists and engineers are awesomely notorious for ignoring a plethora of variables, accuracy and what not in their theories and calculations- as it's deemed irrelavant and would make the system unnecessarily complicated. That's fair. But when you're talking about headphones and equipment like this unnearing accuracy is needed. All I see is the measurements that have been taken thus far by whoever as at best just a small sketch of the full story. The amount of variables that are not considered is just too great for THE STATISTICAN to be able to put mathematical trust in the results. The main reason for this- What is subject to all of these measurments is the literally 99% mysterious; The human sense of hearing.
We know very very little to be able to mathematically achieve precise statements about how a piece of electronic equipment would be percieved. It's a question of medical physics but when medical staticians look at it, they're overwhelmed by the sheer scale of the task of 'mathematicallising' it. Pure mathematicians laugh at this sort of thing and that's why they stick to their infinitely undeniably abstract analytical number theory or whatever. There aint that many pure mathematicians on planet earth. I'm not surprised as some of the topics here are
unbelievably difficult. No one, perhaps apart from 1/2 people on earth touch them in 20 years. 'Errr, not interesting enough' is sometimes the excuse mathematicians like to use to cover for their disregard for such topics!!!
ANYWAY. To Nwavguy. I'm a fan definitely. He's a very enthusiastic and clearly very talented individual. He definitely has given audiophilia a new dimension for many out there. It was just the us to uk illegal yet legal custom/vat/this/that fees that has put me off getting the objective. I'm sure it's a great sounding amp, for little over the fiio e9's price. I think many of his 'fans' if you like have taken him out of context- he's not saying that the amp that measures the best would sound the best (I didn't get this impression). It's just that measuring well is a sign of sounding good- for amps that is.
I don't want to get into a deeper than on the surface level on maths anywhere near these forums. To avoid maths may be one of the reasons I come here in the first place! But there's no shying away from that now, with exams approaching. So I probably won't be on headfi for some time....
8) final words;
- the search function isn't that great on headfi. advanced search is slightly better. Tip: use google to search headfi instead.
Within threads the search function is awesome though. Lets you search a 200 page thread for most likely answers to the questions you have.
- I'm sure you've been on the staple 'sticky' threads on headfi. If you've maybe missed a few here's where you can find them for headphones:
http://www.head-fi.org/f/4/headphones-full-size
or for earphones say:
http://www.head-fi.org/f/103/portable-headphones-earphones-and-in-ear-monitors
Jokers threads are absolutely legendary, I know. The best i've ever come across by far.
- Hope that helps. Good luck and I'm sure you'll like your k550.
Again, i'm sorry, but i probably will be away from headfi for some time. Believe me there are plenty, plenty of far more knowledgable and experienced headfiers than me- I haven't touched custom iems (tried to but the effort knocked me out) or open headphones or high end source components- and this is where much of the sonically leading stuff lies in!!
Cheers to you to!
