[richard51]

Thanks Majoox...That post clarify and answer well my question....

By the way you are not alone in changing mood about the K340, i was not completely satisfied till the optimization process end few days ago....

Like i say they are not for people who will plug them untouched right out of the box....They ask for a job in optimization... Amping among other thing is very important, the plastic grid out of the way too, but damping and equalizing too etc.... They are so sensitive that any cable change will impact....

My best to you.....

 

[richard51]

This headphone made it clear that my Panamax line conditioner raise the noise floor level too much.... I put it off....

I need a power cable now....

 

[richard51]

For sure the equalization is a subjective process and will be specific for each one of us and our audio environment...
I take off my Panamax because it introduce noise i was unconscious of ....

Then my equalization process must be refined more, because the subjective impression is different without the Panamax and the optimization is no more completed in this new acoustic environment without the line conditioner...

This is the reason why, save for few principles about the K340 , like equalizing in my case by increasing the deepest frequencies and the higher one, and adressing the 4khz , and compensating for the bass raining in the mids i could not give precise numbers as rule or post an equalization graph.... This graph cannot be valid and useful for every one else in different objective acoustic environment and in different subjective specific hearing history and ears structure.... For example the perception of the resonance point, this subjective perception will differ because it will be evaluated person to person and with different components and different damping mods on the K340....
But for sure there exist an objective resonant point for the shell of a non modified K340....But his subjective interpretation will also vary....


Without the Panamax the K340 will be better ( less compression and better dynamic)but it will take a bit more time of listening to end the equalization ...

And the introduction of new components i waited for, like this morning a new cable extension for the headphone will add time to the equalization last process...

Now i will connect my new cable....And listen ....

My best to all ....

 

[richard51]

The new headphone extension cable make a difference for the better compared to the cable extension of the AkG K701 i was using.... Better mids and a more refined sound....

The great improvement come from the protein skin larger or thicker pads compared to the leather pads which was itself better and larger than the original pads...

The largest of all pads, the protein skin confirm my intuition that the distance between ear canal from the 2 cells and from the 5 resonators is critical, a better imaging and a more larger or relaxing soundstage appear with the optimal necessary distance.... Better highs and better bass too and better mids.... Incredible cheap improvement for 10 bucks...

I will not even try for the month to come the vented holes pads and the fabric cloth pads because they had the same thickness than the leather one.... And i am too much happy with the protein skin incredible improvement across the board... Think about it: already it was a huge improvement to go from original pads to the leather one.... I never think that this will be so better with the protein skin larger one....

 

[richard51]

I begin now to understand why there is negative reviews or frustrating reviews about the K340...

Majoox is right : amplification, the plastic useless grid, the right pads, and i will add the right cables and a good damping and vibrations and resonance controls of the shells get them to the moon so to speak....

There exist "myths" about them or descriptions erroneously proposed as facts or greatly exagerated criticism: the alleged bad integration of the 2 cells, and the bad influence of the bass into the mids frequencies which are vastly exagerated impressions coming mainly from bad synergy with components, and no damping etc ....

All that is cured with the remedies which me and other described above....

A Slight Equalization optimize the sound quality at the end, for each specific ears and all components improved integration in a more musical experience...

An important remark:

What means in the K340 case an "out of the head " experience ?

It does not means in the K340 case, like in the Raal headphone case or in the Cz-10 case, if i try to understand reviews of them and their design , recreating the impression that we listen to speakers....

Anyway most people experience their stereo speakers experience by a sound located and centered ONLY between their speakers.... And contrary to headphones the sound of speakers for sure is completely out of the head, unlike in most headphone where the sound is behind the forehead and between the 2 ears; but with most speakers experience the truth is the sound is located between the speakers...Most people, it is the reason why this is so, dont use an acoustically controlled and an acoustically designed room...I know that for a fact and by the way i created my own room in the last past years...

The AKG K340 does not recreate this speakers stereo mainly centered expression between the speakers in soundstage...

Instead the K340 try to recreate the original acoustic conditions of each specific original recording choices , like a well designed room/speakers experience will do ... In many good classical recording for example, the instruments, all of them or some of them , the voices, all of them or some of them, this fact is recording dependent, some or all instruments and voices are "out of the head" and in my room or filled the room and in some case are behind me and around me and it was the case in my speakers/room personal experience too....

The K 340 can also reproduce the recording conditions better than most headphones or better than all those i used in the past and mimic my speakers/ acoustically controlled room , where the sound was all around me, near me, in front of me and beside me, completely, or partially,out of my head for sure if the original recording make it possible.... In many case the soundfield of the headphone is just around my head because the recording is such....What i called "out of the head" effect with the K340 is recording dependent....

It is not a speakers like effect, instead it imitate an acoustically well embedded room/speakers effect which is reproduced if the recording engineer made it possible to begin with for sure.... Then the k340 creators never intended for those customers who will bought them to have speakers taped near the ears, nor the idea to artificially recreate a soundfield at the expense of the timbre perception... The K340 are not a Smyth realizer nor a Raal headphone nor a CZ-10....

The important fact in one sentence, is not to recreate a speakers like experience so much but to recreate the original recordings acoustic atmospere in our real room for the speakers or in a "virtual" room out of our head in many case with the K340....

They are only imperfect headphones but one of the best ever designed for me.... Their ratio S.Q./price speak for them...

They could be improved but AKG decided otherwise probably for cost reason i dont know....I will not buy other better headphone because i dont even know if these allegedly better headphones exist at a relatively affordable cost... One thousand is in my limit or near it...

I like to read suggestions if some have a better propostion for sure....

 

[richard51]

Something now which is difficult to explain because i never felt it with any other headopnes, i think that the musicians of jazz are in the room right now, not because that the "out of head" experience is there so much, most old jazz recording are not recorded like some very good classical orchestra or like a chorus most of the times and they are not recorded in vast hall either then i feel the jazz musicians are in the room not so much because of "visual" acoustic localization cues here but because the organ bass for example, in the " Formidable" so named album by the guitar genius Pat Martino, this organ sound so deep i feel it with my body, not only by my ears so much...( as a visual cue still in this album the guitar is "out of my head" in the "virtual room" center and the organ is behind my back)

It seems then the deep bass enter my skeltal bones and induce a vibration all along my body and by consequence i feel it with my feet like a vibration floor entering my legs... it is an illusion born from resonancy of my head bones communicated toward my feet....But it feel so real....It work, with some visual cues of acoustic localization like the position of the guitar "outside my head" in the center of the "virtual" room, to make the musical experience more real...
This vibrating floor illusion is very powerful illusion....

Which other headphone can do it? At what price?

Pat Martino is one of my favorite musician, read about his extraordinary life....Or see youtube documentary about his loss of ALL memory and his recovery of virtuosity at his mature age... Stupendous story....

 

[richard51]

One last thing before going back to music.... This thread is erroneouly titled : AKG K340 electrostatic headphones...

They are not electrostatic, nor dynamic headphone... They are hybrid with a crossover...

More than that they used a new passive 5 resonators technology inside the shell.... They are unique.... No other hybrid use that....

For sure everybody here know that already but this thread is misnominated though till today....

 

[richard51]

I do not keep my word! I dont wait a month....

I just compared the vented holes pads versus the protein skin and the leather one ....

The vented holes one are off the same dimension than the leather pads, and these two are thinner than the big protein skin pads...

Protein skin put emphasis on dark, mid bass and bass mids, they were seductive at first over the leather pads, which are the one which replaced at first the original pads they were way better than these old pads...

After comparison the larger or thicker protein skin were prefered to the leather one BUT after another comparison with the vented holes pads i declared the vented holes pads the winner on all counts...

3-D holography is better, soundstage more cohesive and detailed , timbre are better, because the V.H. pads are more balanced more neutral frequency wise.... The leather pads are less neutral , less detailed, like the protein skin but they are less darker than the protein skin pads compared to the V.H. but at the end the leather pads are less neutral too, less detailed, less holographic, and the timbre of instruments is less natural.... All this is evident on the piano and orchestra test....

Then pads change for the K340 had an enormous impact on the sound, not less than amplification, and with the right pads, equalization is less important too and more easy to be done right because these pads are better balanced....

I hope this will be helpful....

I will not even try the fabric cloth pads, because they are too thin compared to the other 3 and they have holes too but less holes than the Vented holes.... They cannot be better and anyway i dont want my ears touching the drivers....And changing pads with my 5 fingers is like an impossible task .....I am done..... And i am too happy with the vented holes who beat the other three easily.... The noisy originals, the darker and bassier protein skin, and the difficult to equalize and less detailed leather pads.... Viva vented holes pads!

 

[richard51]

interesting scheme for equalization...

https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/innerfidelity/innerfidelity_harman_over-ear_2018/AKG K340 Stock

https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/hp/akg-k-340-ed.php#gsc.tab=0

 

[richard51]

My love for the K340 grow.... The vented hole pads has no inconvenient relatively to the other pads.... And equalization is more easy for me with them....

 

[richard51]

A remark:

I read many reviews and most people who even mods the K340 dont seem to put damping on this big plastic shell which vibrate and create unwanted resonance.... Pads, right amplification, removing of the plastic grid, is not enough, i dont think that mine will sound like they sound now without damping.... I used few years ago some removable auto gluing patch of sorbothane 1/8 inches duro 70.... And some FoQ ta 32 tape... Inside and outside.... I know it is not beautiful outside, but i listen music and dont give a damn about the look if it improve sound....

Reading reviews i dont see so many people speaking of their immense soundstage very holographic 3-d (which i never experience with other headphone at all, my Beyer DT990 pro had a big soundstage but in the head not in 3-d out of the head like the K340 ), if the original recording conditions make it possible for sure, and i think that the criticism about the lack of bass clarity and layerings come from undamped one.... Mine had bass organ very defined not boomy at all.... And cello is to die for.... High note of violin are sublime, and the voice mids are natural so much i cannot see any defect....

It is the only headphone i know who reveal the original acoustic recording atmosphere of any album so clearly, and i scratch my head because i dont perceive a problem with the integration speed between the dynamic cell and the electret cell , i perceive one is swifter than the other yes, but they integrate perfectly.... The reason why i perceive integration where others perceive de-integration is damping.... Undamped, the resonance desynchronize the 2 cells integration.... Correct me if i am wrong.... I see why people speak about this integration problem between the 2 cells but if we remove some vibrations then the integration, and the perception of it, increase; let them undamped then the integration and his perception decrease.... These are my opinions and i am not a physicist nor an acoustician and certainly not an engineer....

Another remark:

The problem of amplification is not linked to the number of watts delivred so much than to their cleanliness.... These headphone are so sensitive in their reaction that any muddy source will be catastrophic soundwise more than for most other headphone....

I say that because i have 2 Sansui amplifiers, two marvels of amplifier.... The Sansui AU 7700 and the alpha one, the 2 are powerful enough , but the sound difference come from the low noise floor level of the alpha....
Dont pair this headphone with a warm dac or a too warm source....They need something really neutral or at worst analytical but not warm....

If i was very rich, and not retired, i will pair them with my dreamed amplifier : the Berning ZOTL... It is a tube amplifier but very different than any other tubes amplifier.... Read about it ... I study a lot about the way to replace my Sansui alpha, which will be very difficult to do especially without hearing the upgrading contender, after years of search i know without doubt that the Berning ZOTL will beat my marvellous Sansui on all counts....But the Sansui is marvellous and i am not frustrated because i cannot afford the Berning now or even tomorrow.... But i am a freamer and i like to study....

 

[JAnonymous5150]

A remark:

I read many reviews and most people who even mods the K340 dont seem to put damping on this big plastic shell which vibrate and create unwanted resonance.... Pads, right amplification, removing of the plastic grid, is not enough, i dont think that mine will sound like they sound now without damping.... I used few years ago some removable auto gluing patch of sorbothane 1/8 inches duro 70.... And some FoQ ta 32 tape... Inside and outside.... I know it is not beautiful outside, but i listen music and dont give a damn about the look if it improve sound....

Reading reviews i dont see so many people speaking of their immense soundstage very holographic 3-d (which i never experience with other headphone at all, my Beyer DT990 pro had a big soundstage but in the head not in 3-d out of the head like the K340 ), if the original recording conditions make it possible for sure, and i think that the criticism about the lack of bass clarity and layerings come from undamped one.... Mine had bass organ very defined not boomy at all.... And cello is to die for.... High note of violin are sublime, and the voice mids are natural so much i cannot see any defect....

It is the only headphone i know who reveal the original acoustic recording atmosphere of any album so clearly, and i scratch my head because i dont perceive a problem with the integration speed between the dynamic cell and the electret cell , i perceive one is swifter than the other yes, but they integrate perfectly.... The reason why i perceive integration where others perceive de-integration is damping.... Undamped, the resonance desynchronize the 2 cells integration.... Correct me if i am wrong.... I see why people speak about this integration problem between the 2 cells but if we remove some vibrations then the integration, and the perception of it, increase; let them undamped then the integration and his perception decrease.... These are my opinions and i am not a physicist nor an acoustician and certainly not an engineer....

Another remark:

The problem of amplification is not linked to the number of watts delivred so much than to their cleanliness.... These headphone are so sensitive in their reaction that any muddy source will be catastrophic soundwise more than for most other headphone....

I say that because i have 2 Sansui amplifiers, two marvels of amplifier.... The Sansui AU 7700 and the alpha one, the 2 are powerful enough , but the sound difference come from the low noise floor level of the alpha....
Dont pair this headphone with a warm dac or a too warm source....They need something really neutral or at worst analytical but not warm....

If i was very rich, and not retired, i will pair them with my dreamed amplifier : the Berning ZOTL... It is a tube amplifier but very different than any other tubes amplifier.... Read about it ... I study a lot about the way to replace my Sansui alpha, which will be very difficult to do especially without hearing the upgrading contender, after years of search i know without doubt that the Berning ZOTL will beat my marvellous Sansui on all counts....But the Sansui is marvellous and i am not frustrated because i cannot afford the Berning now or even tomorrow.... But i am a freamer and i like to study....

Sounds like you really put some time into figuring the K340s out and perfecting your tweaks on them. I only got mine a couple months back after reading about how much @Davidzak64 likes his and I have been nothing but impressed. I haven't had enough time to get into much in the way of mods or experimenting yet, but I'm definitely taking notes from your posts. Thanks for sharing your hard won expertise, bro!

 

[Davidzak64]

Sounds like you really put some time into figuring the K340s out and perfecting your tweaks on them. I only got mine a couple months back after reading about how much @Davidzak64 likes his and I have been nothing but impressed. I haven't had enough time to get into much in the way of mods or experimenting yet, but I'm definitely taking notes from your posts. Thanks for sharing your hard won expertise, bro!

Let the record be clear. @richard51 Headphoneus Supremus of donotknowwhere has spoken Wisdom and truth.

 

[JAnonymous5150]

Let the record be clear. @richard51 Headphoneus Supremus of donotknowwhere has spoken Wisdom and truth.

If Jada decrees it, then it must be the case. This is truly a high honor for the man.

 

[richard51]

Thanks very much for your welcome appreciation....


Just another remark about the right amplifier:

I use equalization a bit to optimize the K340, a non sophisticated 2 equalizer in one so to speak, innate in my Hidizs AP80 pro dac...
My surprize tonight was the discovery of my tone controls in the Sansui... Till now i was using " the direct line circuitry"which is an implemented possibility with this amplifier, the direct line circuit decrease the noise floor level introduced by the tone controls circuit working .... But i tried them tonight for the first time and this was an improvement made without increasing the perceptible noise floor with the tone controls open though, i guess and i know that the tone control circuitry of the Sansui are top notched, my repairman said so to me when inspecting them...
I was amazed by real life double bass sound and the impression of the dynamic was even better because of this marvellous speedy high frequencies very well integrated by the way to the mids and bass....The sound is not "odd" at all....This opinion of mine contradict those who used them without any optimization i guess...

Why was it an improvement?

Because the 2 cells of the K340 are happier in their collaboration so to speak in my opinion with a reinforcement in the deeper bass 30 to 50 hertz and a reinforcement in the very upper higher register too....Then not only i increased them from the dac itself but from the amplifier tone controls now in a kind of proportion....
After increasing the two the results were more than good.... The exact quantity is relative to each one ears and component, but the K340 ask for more and can give more without distorting ever, this is my experience...

The tone control of the Sansui were so well designed with the highest quality that increasing the extreme register did not work against the beauty of the mid frequencies at all , it is the opposite in fact for my perception...

Save for the holographic 3-d impressions and details, and a soundstage "out of the head" to a relative and variable level, relatively to each recording album acoustic engineering choices; the thing which is amazing with the k340 is the deeper and clearer bass compared to most headphones and higher frequencies better than most also ,who melt the ears.... It is the first time ever i wanted highs more and more and i reach to them without these frequencies being agressive nor distorted nor fatiguing .... Ok i am 71 years old, but if it is true for me it will be true for you at the right optimal ratio for sure.... I am not deaf, i tuned myself by ears my own speakers/ room....For sure my hearing is the hearing of an old dude.... But.... I listen very well and i learned to listen ....

And the fact that the K340 can go deeper and higher without distorting and without killing the mids too, speak volume for me about their superior design....

Vintage dont means outdated here.... It is the opposite, i dont think that planar, ribbons, dynamic cell alone or electro-acoustic cell alone can surpass the 5 passive resonators and diffusers technology and the crossover well chosen hybridation point of these unrecognized marvel and such at a reasonnable cost under few thousands bucks....

At their low price used they a free to seize upon, and be patient, be wise and think about optimization, it takes me time to figure it out....It is not an headphone ready to use right out of the box at all....This is the reason why many reviewers see something in them but are unable to listen to them completely, they dont have the time, nor the desire to mods them and learn from them and about this new technology in them ....

The concrete physical design of this headphone is not at the level with their potential level coming from the blueprint designed innovative ideas at all.... AKG engineers cannot be faulted here, they put on the market something extraordinary which was asking for more, way more refinement in the physical design though and way more time to be refined in their physical implementation ....But a company must sell a product to make a profit and survive.... Even if the product is not physically perfect on all counts for many reasons.,...This design is pure genius in audio for me.... Using Helmholtz science about passive resonators inside the shell, like we can use them in a room, i did it by the way, and designing the right crossover was very clever....

The truth is they are an "unrecognized potential S.Q." for sure because of their cheap price on the used market and they look like an old design now....And odd appearance....And mosot people, me included, we never think that can sound so good, natural, detailed, and realistic.... There exist better headphone i think sure, but which one and what is the price, i wanted to know.....

Audiophile consumers are after hype and new products not after vintage no cost marvel which are forgotten... I am an audiophile too... I dont accuse anybody absolving myself here.... But i confess my astonishment after fate decided i could no more afford speakers and dedicated audio room for my last years of life.... I did never love really any of my past headphones over my acoustically dedicated room , it is the reason why i bought so much of them because none ever satisfied me and after that it is the reason why i worked with the relation speakers/room forgetting headphones ....My speakers /room was killing all my headphones till the K340.... And it is the reason why after the K340 i will probably never buy another one again ....

But i am curious, dont hesitate to propose me a contender.....