[james444]

 
I see.
 
Let me clarify what I'm thinking:
 
When I think of neutral I only think of the technical definition, which is a flat frequency response from top to bottom. FLAT without dips or peaks. This is easy to accomplish with speakers and easy to measure. Something a mastering engineer will reference while mixing in a studio using studio monitors. This has been nearly impossible for headphone manufacterers given the close distance of the ears and different wave lengths at different frequencies. You have to play by ear and experience to know what is neutral and what is not
 
But yeah, everyone on head-fi has their own personal made up definition of neutral which is confusing since there is actually a technical definition for it.
 
I think transparency and detail retrieval is a matter of driver speed. Thus companies try to decrease the mass of the driver and increase the magnetic flux so that the drivers refresh faster. Sennheiser put a hole in the middle of their driver in order to increase the speed (which was already done by speaker manufacterers). Beyer has their Tesla, and planars use heavy magnets on both sides, etc, etc.
 
I think driver rigidity is where clarity comes in, thus companies coating surfaces of diaphrams with titanium or using different structures etc, like dual structure or seven layer diaphrams etc, etc. The more the diaphram can stay in shape while moving quickly the better clarity you get.
 
People will pay more for more driver speed (transparency/detail retrieval). This make sense because the faster the driver refresh the more informaiton it can retrieve and thus using huge quality files like DSD actually has a point
 
To the point the K3003 has substantially more driver speed than the SE846, it retrieves more information at all frequencies, even the bass which is surprising given that it's going up against armatuers.
 
Anyway this is my attempt to clarify my view

 
I see you're coming from speakers, but I don't think that speed is that much of a concern with IEM drivers, which have very little mass. BAs are ever so often even too fast for their own good and have trouble rendering lifelike bass decay. Some custom manufacturers even add a delayed BA-woofer to make up for that.
 
High rigidity / coating is used to reduce distortion and retain clarity, I concur with that. But I don't share your pov regarding speed. Imo detail is first and foremost a result of sound signature, i.e. a reasonably linear response that avoids masking.
 
As for neutral, you can measure headphones with tiny probe mikes at eardrum level, but even the measurements for the same headphone vary between different listeners. That's why I said neutral is a moving target.

 

[up late]

Imo neutral is a moving target

x2 and achieving a flat fr with loudspeakers is not as straightforward as some folks would have you believe. that goes for measuring them as well.

also very sceptical of subjective claims regarding the speed of drivers in cans and loudspeakers

 

[jelt2359]

Originally Posted by james444 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I don't think that speed is that much of a concern with IEM drivers, which have very little mass. I don't share your pov regarding speed. Imo detail is first and foremost a result of sound signature, i.e. a reasonably linear response that avoids masking.

Agree.

 

[proedros]

 
 
PS. I also listen to Tool, they are great at what they do, but their musicianship is quite simple. Compared to other artists in my library they feel as formulaic as the pentatonic scale - which makes them a drag sometimes IMO. PM me if you want to talk music, I could bet that I have some recommendations that you would like.
 
 
   

 
Tool = simple/formulaic ? now i am intrigued and i am really interested to hear what are these 'other artists' in your library (and hoping it's not metal which imho is even more formulaic music...)

 

[Dobrescu George]

say, try, rings of saturn, la dispute, protest the hero, for something that is not simple of formulaic, but metal of sorts!

 

[proedros]

  say, try, rings of saturn, la dispute, protest the hero, for something that is not simple of formulaic, but metal of sorts!

 
thanx for the suggestions but it is too noisy/tiring music for my taste - my guess is you must be pretty young(20something?)  if you can stand this kind of screaming music

here are 3 suggestions of mine off the top of my head (truly mind**** music , of very high IQ and musicianship)
 
king crimson - discipline
miles davis - on the corner
brian eno & david byrne - my life in the bush of ghosts
 

 

[Idsynchrono_24]

   
Tool = simple/formulaic ? now i am intrigued and i am really interested to hear what are these 'other artists' in your library (and hoping it's not metal which imho is even more formulaic music...)

I actually remember that exact same post from when I researched the K3K thread :l 
 

   
thanx for the suggestions but it is too noisy/tiring music for my taste - my guess is you must be pretty young(20something?)  if you can stand this kind of screaming music

here are 3 suggestions of mine off the top of my head (truly mind**** music , of very high IQ and musicianship)
 
king crimson - discipline
miles davis - on the corner
brian eno & david byrne - my life in the bush of ghosts
 

...
 
Muzak alt account? lol

 

[proedros]

muzak = music 4321 ? i saw a post of his in the K3003 thread where he mentioned KC and he instantly gained my respect.

btw why was he banned ? you don't ban people with such good taste , you should ban people who are into justin bieber/jkorean pop girl bands etc

 

 

[Idsynchrono_24]

Quote:

  muzak = music 4321 ? i saw a post of his in the K3003 thread where he mentioned KC and he instantly gained my respect.

btw why was he banned ? you don't ban people with such good taste , you should ban people who are into justin bieber/jkorean pop girl bands etc

 

 
I'm sad to have to inform you that, beneath that "cerebral" facade, Mr. Muzak was all about that Justin Bieber/Kiteki/expensive motorbike life 

 

[MrGuzmanWhite]

My second day with the K3003i ... extremely impressed with the white (treble) boots filter. In my view this is the most special filter of this IEM, extreme clarity with perfect high-mids and highs but not fatiguing at all. The extension of the high frequencies is sublime. I also love how it converse female and even male voices, I find that the white/treble filter conveys the most seamless transition from mids to highs.
 
I don't find the grey (reference) filter that impressive with voices, indeed it is a little disappointing, it doesn't sound natural to me.
 
The only limitation I find on the white (treble) filter is that it loses a bit of punch in the low miss and bass, and in some recordings it may appear to be a little thin as consequence. The ideal filter for me would be a blend of the gray/reference for low miss and bass, and treble/white filter for high-mids and treble. That would be a perfect IEM.
 
How could we blend both the white/treble and gray/reference filters?
 
I am now trying to use both a white filter in one side and the gray in the other hoping that the brain will mix the sound seamlessly and I will not notice the imbalance on the sides (I am am blinded, I don't know where is each filter so I don't overthink when listening) while capturing the benefit of both filters ... so far appears to work ... I will keep searching for the perfect fit for the K3003i ... this is a really impressive IEM, very special.
 
Now I need to find tips that allow deeper insertion because with shallow fit it is not easy for me to get a good seal.
 
Sorry for the rambling I feel like sharing with you my journey and testing of the K3003i

 

[MrGuzmanWhite]

  say, try, rings of saturn, la dispute, protest the hero, for something that is not simple of formulaic, but metal of sorts!

Yeap, La Dispute (Rooms in the House) sounds incredible with the K3003i ... very impressive. And I am not in my 20s any longer for a couple of decades ... this is good music.

 

[proedros]

 
Yeap, La Dispute (Rooms in the House) sounds incredible with the K3003i ... very impressive. And I am not in my 20s any longer for a couple of decades ... this is good music.

 
the 20something went for skerry as his picks seemed boring uninspired loud music 
 
i don't know what your taste is - in fact i am curious since you diss out a band like Tool like this - so please hit me with some music suggestions

 
 
here , take a look at 70 of my favourite albums plus some more who are runners-up, you will dig an album or two i am sure
 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Alice In Chains - Jar Of Flies / Sap (1993)
 
Aphex Twin’s - Selected Ambient Works II (1994)
 
David Byrne & Brian Eno - My Life In the Bush Of Ghosts (1981)
 
Can - Future Days (1973)
 
Gene Clark - No Other (1974)
 
David Crosby - If I Could Only Remember My Name (1971)
 
Dadawah - Peace And Love (1977)
 
Miles Davis - In A Silent Way (1969)
 
Miles Davis - Bitches Brew (1970)
 
Miles Davis - On the Corner (1972)
 
 
 
 
Miles Davis - Get Up With It (1974)
 
Miles Davis - Agharta (1975)
 
Miles Davis - Pangaea (1975)
 
Miles Davis - Dark Magus (1977)
 
Dead Can Dance - Spiritchaser (1996)
 
Alexandre Desplat - Birth OST (2004)
 
DJ Shadow - Endtroducing.... (1996)
 
Brian Eno - Ambient 4 : On Land (1982)
 
Donald Fagen - The Nightfly (1982)
 
Fleetwood Mac - Rumours (1977)
 
Peter Gabriel - 3 ''Melt'' (1980)
 
Marvin Gaye - What's Goin On (1971)
 
Marvin Gaye - Let's Get It On (1973)
 
Marvin Gaye - I want You (1976)
 
Marvin Gaye - Here , My Dear (1978)
 
Manuel Göttsching - Inventions For Electric Guitar (1975)
 
 
 
Manuel Göttsching - E2 E4 (1984)
 
 Guns 'n' Roses - Appetite For Destruction (1987)
 
Jane's Addiction - Ritual De Lo Habitual (1990)
 
King Crimson - Discipline (1981)
 
Kyuss - ...And the Circus Leaves Town (1995)
 
Love - Forever Changes (1967)
 
Massive Attack - Mezzanine (1998)
 
Monster Magnet - Dopes To Infinity (1995)
 
Nine Inch Nails  The Downward Spiral (1994)
 
Nine Inch Nails - The Fragile (1999)
 
Pink Floyd - The Dark side Of The Moon (1973)
 
Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here (1975)
 
 
 
Pink Floyd - Animals (1977)
 
Pink Floyd - The Wall (1979) 
 
Pixies - Doolittle (1989)
 
Popol Vuh - Hosianna Mantra (1972) 
 
Porcupine Tree - Voyage 34 (1993) 
 
Porcupine Tree - The Sky Moves Sideways (1995)
 
Porcupine Tree - Signify (1996)
 
Red Hot Chilli Peppers - Blood Sugar Sex Magik (1992)
 
Todd Rundgren - Something / Anything ? (1972)
 
Santana - Abraxas (1970)
 
 
 
Sly And The Family Stone - There's A Riot Goin' On (1971)
 
Smashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream (1993)
 
Soundgarden - Badmotorfinger (1991)
 
Soundgarden - Superunknown (1994)
 
Soundgarden - Down On The Upside (1996)
 
Spiritualized - Lazer Guided Melodies (1992)
 
Steely Dan - Aja (1977)
 
Steely Dan - Gaucho (1980)
 
Talk Talk - The Colour Of Spring (1986)
 
Talk Talk - Spirit Of Eden (1988) 
 
Talk Talk - Laughing Stock (1991)
 
 
 
Talking Heads - Fear Of Music (1979) 
 
Talking Heads - Remain In Light (1980)   
 
Tangerine Dream - Logos Live (1982)
 
The Beatles - Abbey Road (1969)
 
The Mars Volta - Frances The Mute (2005)
 
The Rolling Stones - Exile On Main Street (1972) 
 
The Verve - A Storm In Heaven (1993)
 
The Verve - A Northern Soul (1995)
 
Tricky - Maxinquaye (1995)
 
Dennis Wilson - Pacific Ocean Blue (1977)
 
Neil Young - On The Beach (1974)  
 
 
 
 
 
[ Close But No Cigar ]
 
 
Alice In Chains - Alice In Chains (1995)
 
Aphex Twin’s - Selected Ambient Works 85-92 (1992)
 
Aphrodite's Child - 666 (1972)
 
Biosphere - Substrata (1997)
 
Tim Buckley - Greetings From L.A. (1972)
 
Can - Tago Mago (1971)
 
Can - Ege Bamyasi (1972)
 
Miles Davis - A Tribute to Jack Johnson (1971)
 
 
 
 
 
Fleetwood Mac - Mirage (1982)
 
Funkadelic - Standing On The Verge Of Getting It On (1974)
 
Peter Gabriel - 4 ''Security'' (1982)
 
Grails - Deep Politics (2011)
 
 
 
Philip Glass - The Hours (2003)
 
Herbie Hancock - Sextant (1972)
 
 
 
Parliament - Mothership Connection (1975)
 
Parliament - Funkentelechy vs. the Placebo Syndrome (1977)  
 
R.E.M. - Automatic For The People (1992)
 
Todd Rundgren - A wizard, a true star (1973)
 
Todd Rundgren - Nearly Human (1989)
 
 
 
Steve Roach - Dreamtime Return (1988)
 
 
Talking Heads - The Name Of The Band Is (1982)
 
Tangerine Dream - Ricochet (1975)
 
Television - Marquee Moon (1977)  
 
The Beatles - The White Album (1968)
 
The Future Sound Of London - Lifeforms (1994)
 
Tool - Aenima (1996)
 
Tool - Lateralus (2001)
 
Van Morrison - Astral Weeks (1968)
 
Van Morrison - Vendon Fleece (1974)
 

 

[Dobrescu George]

sorry for staying a little off-thread.
 
music is better nowdays than it used to be due to technology advancement and cheap good microphones being cheap and good.
 
i am going to start a thread around about good bands for all tastes, i listen to everything, but it is hard to fiind very very good recorded albums, of very very high quality...
 
 

 
Yeap, La Dispute (Rooms in the House) sounds incredible with the K3003i ... very impressive. And I am not in my 20s any longer for a couple of decades ... this is good music.

you could also be into grey daze, sianvar, something with lyrics would be hotel books, but not close as sound.. forever la dispute is going to have that special thing to them

 
 
 

   
the 20something went for skerry as his picks seemed boring uninspired loud music 

i agree with you, rings of saturn is very very loud, but it is not boring. you told metal is all the same, and these three bands would dissaproove.

 
i tried the bands that you recommended.. all were exactly how i thought from your post. the music is very very interesting at the instrument level. i like bands that layer more instruments, with more complex structures, with more notes, faster music.
It is because of age, and i respect good music that was made before computers were able to do anything. like Iron maiden, or ACDC. i just like to implicate more, bands that i recommended have this thing, you get in the song, the mind races with the song. this is the senzation that is so good about them. 

 

[proedros]

  sorry for staying a little off-thread.
 
music is better nowdays than it used to be due to technology advancement and cheap good microphones being cheap and good.
 
i am going to start a thread around about good bands for all tastes, i listen to everything, but it is hard to fiind very very good recorded albums, of very very high quality...
 

 
a final thought on the 2 bold parts and we shall return to the normal K3003 comments

personal taste is personal/subjective, and i respect it

i feel like the music quality took a big plunge after 2000 with some exceptions , but then again i think that music peaked in the 70s when it seemed like an IQ orgasm taking place then and then did another very strong turn (ideas/melody- wise) in the 90s

i also think that today's music is not better production-wise , due to the so called 'loudness war' / overcompressing production,  thus having very bad/low 'dynamic range' - if you listen to a 80s cd and compare it to most 00s remaster , you see how the sound quality is quite worse in the remasters with less dynamic range and more 'clipping'

cheers

 

[james444]

  I'm sad to have to inform you that, beneath that "cerebral" facade, Mr. Muzak was all about that Justin Bieber/Kiteki/expensive motorbike life 

 
Yeah, I think they banned him for proposing to Kiteki. That was the last straw.