May 20, 2018 at 9:07 PM Post #136 of 220
ahah, seems like the kind of stuff I'll do knowing full well that it has zero practical purpose.
I already thought we had some things in common. There is however also one a little bit practical application of this proposal. If you have a complete many-speaker set-up in your room, but you want to use the Realiser and headphones because you have to mind the neighbours (that is the situation I am in actually, I have been thinking in the past of building a sound-proof room within my room, the Realiser for me is the much cheaper - not with the new retail price of course - and easier alternative with the additional advantage of being able to improve my virtual system etc.). As has been said already, the visual stimuli of the speakers being really there - and just being in the same room and the same position - can support/enhance the illusion of listening to speakers. But if there are 2 simultanious users, and both have a PRIR made in the same position of the room, one of them would have to sit in another position and the position of the virtual speakers would not match the real speakers anymore. The solution: let both users use a PRIR that was made in the actual seating position they will be in when using the Realiser together. And now the nice thing: they could still both have close to optimal sound because for each seperate PRIR measurement you could first optimise levels, delays and eq/roomcorrection for the seating position involved!
 
May 20, 2018 at 9:34 PM Post #137 of 220
I want to be in a swing in the middle of the room swinging back and forth in an arc with the sound swirling around me!
 
Sep 26, 2018 at 7:32 PM Post #140 of 220
There are a couple of multichannel records being released soon that have me thinking about the way 5.1 is mixed... John Lennon's Imagine and The Beatles White Album. The team producing Imagine have put out some press about their techniques and it seems wrong headed to me. They are doing surround mixes that they call "raw surround". The idea is that each channel on the master tape is assigned to a specific channel on the blu-ray. Lennon's vocals in the center. Stereo drum spread in the left and right mains, along with keyboards left and Lennon's guitar right. Bass left rear Guitar fills right rear. That seems to me like it would sound awful. All of the early quad mixes where instruments are isolated in specific channels sound really thin. And putting the bass in one side of the rear when most people use bass management with a sub up front seems like it would sound like the bass was smeared across the room with the low part up front and the high part to one side in the rear. They say that this raw mix technique makes it sound like it would if you were in the studio standing right in the middle of the band. I'm not so sure. It sounds like lazy mixing to me.

The White Album is a totally different approach. Like Sgt Pepper, it's being mixed for Atmos (even though it isn't being released on blu-ray that way for some reason). The individual elements of the mix are placed in three dimensional space, so if something is in the middle of the room, it's coming out of all five speakers and meshing in the middle as a phantom center. A lot of people complained that Sgt Pepper's mix sounded like stereo. They called it a very conservative mix. Most of those complaints are because the rear channels were mastered -6dB too low. They never admitted it, so people were listening without hearing the stuff in the center of the sound field, because the fronts and rears were meshing a few feet in front of the rear wall. But I've read some people say that even if they boost the level of the rears to the proper level, it still seems like a flat mix. I was wondering how this could be, and I've come up with a theory.

In the early days of quad, sound elements were localized in specific speakers. I call this "the four corners approach". Most movies and a lot of multichannel music is recorded by pairing sets of speakers... for instance front left and rear left... and then balancing the levels to place the sound somewhere along the left wall. I call this "the four walls approach". They might pair the left and right mains, along with the center channel to define the front soundstage; or pair the two rears to place something along the back wall. But rarely do they pair diagonally across the room. I think the reason for this is that the wide variety of room acoustics make it difficult to predict if pairs would mesh properly that way. It's more foolproof to place along walls.

But Atmos uses the "sound field approach". There's no pairing of 2 channels. All of the speakers contain bits of the sound field in varying levels so the sound localizes in the middle of the room. It seems to me that this approach only works if all of your speakers are full range and the response and levels are precisely tuned to the room. If there is any problem with the room's acoustics, the sound field dissolves and it's just bland directionless sound coming at you from all directions.

When I play Sgt Pepper, For the Benefit of Mr Kite has a section with swirling calliope music that has a sound that I can only describe as being like a pitcher of water being stirred in a circle. The sound doesn't just go around the walls of the room. It seems to swirl out from the center of the room like a rotating pinwheel. And when I play Good Morning, the fox hunt starts in the right front channel and crosses diagonally across the center of the room ending up in the left rear channel. As it crosses, the phantom center is solid. No dipping in the middle at all. However if someone's rear channel speakers were small, or if there was something blocking them, I can see how it would sound like the fox hunt starts out in the front right and fades out as it fades up behind you in the left rear.

Immersiveness seems to depend on tight control over the phantom center of the room, but most people's systems aren't capable of doing that without added speakers. A typical system can easily do "four corners" or "four walls" because that only involves the edges of the room. But if you have full range power in all channels and the room acoustics to allow a phantom center to be formed you can do object based sound fields. That might be why some people think the Sgt Pepper mix sounds flat and non defined, while others think it is immersive and well defined.
 
Sep 26, 2018 at 8:53 PM Post #142 of 220
No, I'm afraid I have a few hurdles to overcome. Some involve the limitations of the room and others involve the limitations of my wallet! I'm sure true Atmos would be more precise than Atmos folded down to 5.1.
 
Sep 27, 2018 at 1:36 PM Post #144 of 220
I wouldn't want to judge the Realizer until I've heard a real installation. And I think the quality of the Realizer is going to depend on a lot of variables that aren't clear yet, like the variety of available room simulations, the degree of customization abilities and how lagless the performance is. It still won't have the kinesthetic sense of a real speaker system.
 
Sep 28, 2018 at 1:03 PM Post #145 of 220
yup, having to keep good head tracking imposes pretty serious choices that maybe wouldn't otherwise be made. but all in all we are lucky that so called "zero delay" filter is effectively the best option for a lot of things. I can't imagine if we had to use some filters adding 100ms of lag over the already unavoidable lag induced by processing and dealing with the motion censors' feedback. that would have been the end of head tracking right there.

IMO we now have the tech to do a really good job. the biggest variations and issues will most likely come from the microphone. how we place it, how we move while calibrating, and of course ambient noise in the room. but nothing that can't be strongly mitigated by doing it until we're getting it right and it feels right. ^_^
 
Sep 28, 2018 at 1:18 PM Post #146 of 220
I'd still like to hear from someone who has actually spent time with a Realizer. Everything up to now has just been theory based on articles about it.
 
Sep 29, 2018 at 1:52 PM Post #148 of 220
I want a real person's report, not advertorial. Preferably someone who usually listens to a speaker system, not headphones.
 
Sep 29, 2018 at 2:04 PM Post #149 of 220
I want a real person's report, not advertorial. Preferably someone who usually listens to a speaker system, not headphones.

Realistically, I think the goal of the Realizer is to get as close to speakers as possible knowing that some elements simply can’t be reproduced by headphones. As you mentioned previously, the tactile elements, particularly from a subwoofer, simply aren’t in the cards for headphones.

I spend most of my time listening to a well calibrated 5.2 speaker system, but switch to headphones later at night to not disturb the rest of the household. If the Realizer does a good job of emulating the spacial elements of the surround system, I’ll be very interested in trying it out.
 
Sep 29, 2018 at 2:10 PM Post #150 of 220
A lot of people are saying that it is exactly like listening to speakers. If that's the case, I'm interested. I rarely listen to headphones for serious listening. I wouldn't be looking to make headphones sound better. My interest would be in having more control over room acoustics and distortion in a simulated speaker system to make simulated speakers sound better that real ones.
 

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