[Xcalibur255]

This idea that SS = Neutral is not really valid, IMO.

 
A good point to raise.  SS runs the gamut just like anything else.  It's also possible to take two platforms which produce the same FR graphs and have them sound tonally different anyway due to other factors that don't show up in just that one measurement.  The question for "netural" should really just be a quest for whatever sound personally 'clicks' for each individual person.

 

[tagosaku]

  Sylvania 6SN7W is as close as it gets.  There are at least 3 versions.  All are expensive.

you mean the short one?
 
Metal base and non metal base long bottle sounds very different from the short bottle. And metal base and non metal base sounds different from each other too. 

 

[gibosi]

  A good point to raise.  SS runs the gamut just like anything else. 

 
Yes indeed. I have a Little Dot 1+ adapted to roll 6SN7 and other medium-mu double triodes in the driver stage and rollable op-amps in the output stage.  In my experience rolling op-amps in the 1+, some are bassy and warm while others are cool and thin. And further, some are wet and liquid while others are rather dry and grainy. Like virtually everything else in audio, some op-amps might be called "neutral" but certainly not all of them.

 

[Oskari]

This idea that SS = Neutral is not really valid, IMO.

 

  A good point to raise.  SS runs the gamut just like anything else.  …

 

  Yes indeed. …

 
Agreed.

 

[Badas]

^
 
I gave up on neutral a long time ago. I read heaps of reviews on the Oppo HA-1 SS being very neutral and a lot of praise for it. I couldn't stand it. It ruined all music. Eventually changed the DAC which fixed up the sound.
 
Also why roll tubes to get a SS or neutral type of sound? I have never got that. I want tubes to sound different to SS. It is the whole point. Otherwise just buy a SS amp then you don't have the tube replacement problem. I hear someone says it is great and it sounds SS I make a mental note to not get the tube. I hunt for lush and musical.
 
Just my thoughts.

 

[coinmaster]

I just want realism. I want to close my eyes and have it sound like the band is in the room. Hard to get that with colored sound.

 

[Mechans1]

Yes but realism isn't usually a function of tube or not tube systems.  I didn't hear really super sound staging and a 3D effect with my large speaker system until I got tube monobloc output amps.  The amps were just great they had something really special in them.  I don't know what is was/is . 
It is OK I think if you generalize a little bit.  SS can often mean a clean crisp sharp edged attack etc. and  that we all know when the SS flavor is really overexpressed.  Just like we think of tubes as being capable of being warm soft syrupy rolled off etc.  I can tell you there are SS amps that sound like the cliché tube amp I just described and tube amps that with your eyes closed would swear are SS.

 

[Porteroso]

  I just want realism. I want to close my eyes and have it sound like the band is in the room. Hard to get that with colored sound.

Yeah, but how many times do you really just hear a band? Aren't you almost always hearing it after it's been amplified with speakers? I've heard very few live performances where I thought "wow, that sounds really good." Most of the time, I'm left imagining what the band could have sounded like had the amps/speakers/room not been so bad. Good tubes might not be neutral, but they are balanced. They might give color, but the best tubes I have heard, well, it's hard to tell if they're giving color, or allowing the recording to speak its own color. All of this is relative, but any tube amp will not be SS sounding, by nature.
 
Of the most balanced, least colored, most transparent tubes I have, it is the TS round plate. It and the National Union are vastly superior to everything else, in my opinion. I do have these in 6F8G, but it is electrically equivalent to 6SN7, and many people think that either the 6F8G sounds the same, or slightly better.

 

[coinmaster]

  Yeah, but how many times do you really just hear a band? Aren't you almost always hearing it after it's been amplified with speakers? I've heard very few live performances where I thought "wow, that sounds really good." Most of the time, I'm left imagining what the band could have sounded like had the amps/speakers/room not been so bad. Good tubes might not be neutral, but they are balanced. They might give color, but the best tubes I have heard, well, it's hard to tell if they're giving color, or allowing the recording to speak its own color. All of this is relative, but any tube amp will not be SS sounding, by nature.
 
Of the most balanced, least colored, most transparent tubes I have, it is the TS round plate. It and the National Union are vastly superior to everything else, in my opinion. I do have these in 6F8G, but it is electrically equivalent to 6SN7, and many people think that either the 6F8G sounds the same, or slightly better.

 I'm not talking about a live performance as in comparing it to a concert. I'm talking about having it sound believable and not like it's coming out of an artificial source.

 

[TonyNewman]

  ....
Of the most balanced, least colored, most transparent tubes I have, it is the TS round plate. It and the National Union are vastly superior to everything else, in my opinion. I do have these in 6F8G, but it is electrically equivalent to 6SN7, and many people think that either the 6F8G sounds the same, or slightly better.

 
From a tube performance point of view I am totally on board with this. NU has much more coloration than the TS RP. Both are superb tubes.

 

[Badas]

  Yeah, but how many times do you really just hear a band? Aren't you almost always hearing it after it's been amplified with speakers? I've heard very few live performances where I thought "wow, that sounds really good." Most of the time, I'm left imagining what the band could have sounded like had the amps/speakers/room not been so bad. Good tubes might not be neutral, but they are balanced. They might give color, but the best tubes I have heard, well, it's hard to tell if they're giving color, or allowing the recording to speak its own color. All of this is relative, but any tube amp will not be SS sounding, by nature.

 
Correct there.

I just don't get this search for SS sounding tubes. Who said SS was the standard?
 
The whole point of tubes is to colour and tweak to a sound signature that is pleasing to you.
 
As I'm the only one who uses my rig. I don't give a flying stuff about SS, neutral or accurate. It has to move me.

 

[Porteroso]

 
 I'm not talking about a live performance as in comparing it to a concert. I'm talking about having it sound believable and not like it's coming out of an artificial source.

I simply hear nothing of the sort with either tube I mentioned. When you do a/b testing, there are differences, but among good tubes, they present a sound that you can completely lose yourself in. I think you are way overthinking this, if you think that you are going to try the best 6SN7 tubes available, and still not be able to immerse yourself in the music. I am a violinist, so I am around real, live music every day for hours, and while I do have tubes that would be distracting, I just don't listen to them. Try the TS round plate, if you must have the best, most transparent, most detailed 6SN7 tube you can get. You will pay a boatload of money for it, and the reason is because it's just that good. People love music with it.

 

[isquirrel]

I don't need any convincing the TS RP BG is the ultimate 6SN7 - my old friend worked as an engineer for TS and he says the 6SN7 's were engineered to be the superior tube, he said we knew were creating something special with that tube. I have Briamr's, RCA's, Ken Rad's blah blah. Nothing holds a candle to a good set of these babies.
 
I am clearly addicted to them I now have 16 sets. Yes there are differences between them but they are not major, funnily enough everyone raves about the VT-231's - they were designated that because their primary primary purpose was for the military, they didn't care so much about specs - only testing a couple of pairs out of batches - and if they passed they were stored or deployed. As a result you can get some real fails there. I have found that's it trial and error and trying my best to match a set up that have the same volume output.  
 
Its rubbish that the one's marked VT-231 should be worth more or less. They are exactly the same tube.
 
Just bought a nice NOS set that test well for US $640 pair. I predict they will be up to $800 by the end of the year. 
 

 

 

[coinmaster]

Does anyone know how the Winged "C" 6H13C / 6AS7G sounds? 

 

[Badas]

  Does anyone know how the Winged "C" 6H13C / 6AS7G sounds? 

Wrong thread. Should be on the 6AS7G thread.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/1815#post_11402714
 
However. I have tried about 9 pairs. Two pairs are golden and sound very nice and lush. One other pair is marginal it has a little noise that could go with burn time. The other 6 pairs are either noisy or completely faulty (I believe I got sold seconds). If you get a good pair they sound nice. Half way between RCA 6AS7G and Tung-Sol 6AS7G (the best). The other thing is the Russian tubes runs very hot. I don't like it for that reason. There are better choices out there. Sylvania 6080 is very very nice. It is what I'm using right now.