[Fox1977]

Why would it go up in value? The A16 is far superior. I have a Tact RCS 2.0, a Perpetual P-1A/P-3A, etc and I can tell you that these sorts of digital products do not go up in value. They become obsolete.

J.Villain meant, more like a joke, that maybe some day it will be worth some real money as a collectible because it was the very first one built (serial number 0001) in the same way that the first Apple computers are more than obsolete and yet these 40 year-old machines can be sold for tens of thousands dollars.
But that would imply that the Smyth devices would become ultra famous, and even though the A8 and A16 would clearly deserve to be popular, i doubt it will ever happen.

 

[Sanctuary]

Lots of new info here including progress and good stuff like the HDMI boards. Give it a read.

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...al-3d-audio-headphone-processor/posts/1917399

Yep. I actually said in another post elsewhere (maybe here too, but dunno) that I didn't expect these to be out any earlier than Sept/Oct for so many reasons. And I'm actually totally fine with that, especially when you look at the improvements they added along the way, such as the more powerful headphone amp for one of the jacks (even though you can still use your own external for either), on top of the update in April that was the improved HDMI ports for HDR that they said should almost certainly ship with the units in August. Considering they were still showing prototype production models in January, just last month they showed the way the front panels might look in terms of logos and input labels, and they were still using the prototype headphone unit in shows in July, that just screamed to me that they were still slightly behind. Personally, I'm not going to start worrying unless it starts getting pushed back again late October to sometime next year. We already know the A8 is a proven piece of hardware, so it's not like this is just some random Kickstarter vaporware from and unknown company.

In the end, when you consider what the unit was envisioned to do even before all of the very welcome additions, for less than $2,000, even with the delays it's a goddamn steal. On a personal, ironic note; because of the way it was looking last year in regards to HDR, I was going to have to buy a UHD player that had its own seperate audio out so that I could run the video directly to the TV, instead of it going through the A16. Even when it started to look like I might no longer need to (and now it seems I won't), I'm still going to be getting a unit that has two HDMI outs, with one specific for audio simply because that's how the player comes, and it's a really good player.

 

[J.Villain]

Why would it go up in value? The A16 is far superior. I have a Tact RCS 2.0, a Perpetual P-1A/P-3A, etc and I can tell you that these sorts of digital products do not go up in value. They become obsolete.

If there is a break through in the technology that makes it more mas market spawning an industry having serial number 0001 could make it a collectors item for a museum ot tech institute. I once had a back copy of the first edition on a Music Magazine and sold it back to the company owner for 5 figures when they went to do a retrospective of what the company had done since it's founding. That was a magazine. The retro crowd may take a liking to it as well. Now serial number 0002 meh.

 

[Sanctuary]

Why does anyone pay ridiculous amounts of money for antiques or first editions of anything? Look no further than comic books, stamps and baseball cards.

 

[illram]

So with the new HDMI 20.b board does this mean their original spec sheet, which shows 4K @4:4:4 @30hz and not 60hz, is out of date? I.e. the new board does 4:4:4 (full chroma, necessary for PC's over HDMI) at 4k/60hz?

If so this is not only an amazing audio device but probably one of the most versatile video receivers out there given it also does all of the HDR solutions... pretty remarkable.

 

[pcfi]

Please forgive the massive first post...

I.e. the new board does 4:4:4 (full chroma, necessary for PC's over HDMI) at 4k/60hz?

It will support 4:4:4 but only 8bit. This is a limitation of HDMI 2.0 spec (it does not have sufficient bandwidth and 2.0b doesn't fix this). Anyone wanting to use Realiser A16 will need to use DisplayPort if they want 4K 60hz 4:4:4 10bit --- or 4K HDR at >60hz (FreeSync 2 monitors are arriving very soon!). This will change in 2018 when HDMI 2.1 becomes available, but until then DisplayPort is the only option - and not a very good one....

It's notoriously difficult to get a GPU to just send audio down an unused HDMI output - it must be enabled as a display in Windows and you can't do this without a connected display under Windows 10. Once again: HDCP serves only to frustrate. You could try to mirror your Displayport output to HDMI -> Realiser. Depending on your GPU/driver/luck, you will almost certainly get one or more of:

• Drop in performance
• Displayport will drop back to 60hz
• You will constantly have to switch your audio output device on PC
• It won't work

https://forums.geforce.com/default/...s/feature-request-hdmi-audio-without-display/

For anyone affected by this and planning to run the Realiser "headless":

PC --> DisplayPort --> Monitor
PC --> HDMI --> Realiser A16 HDMI Input 1
Realiser HDMI Out --> nothing

It's likely that the GPU will detect no Display EDID and refuse to output audio to HDMI. You will need something like this on the Realiser HDMI Output :
https://www.amazon.com/CompuLab-4K-Display-Emulator-fit-Headless/dp/B00JKFTYA8
(Only supports 15hz @ 4K - This might cause refresh rate issues with your primary DisplayPort output...)

If you want want to use HDMI for other devices as well, like:

PC --> DisplayPort --> Monitor
PC --> HDMI --> Realiser A16 HDMI Input 1
BluRay --> HDMI --> Realiser A16 HDMI Input 2
Realiser HDMI Out --> TV/Projector

Then you'll encounter other issues:

1) Your PC won't send audio to the Realiser A16 while your TV is off
2) You will be constantly having to switch audio output device on your PC

So... You might need to put something like this between your PC and the Realiser:

https://www.amazon.com/Orei-Splitter-Ports-Supports-Control/dp/B06WRV8V1F

This should allow you to pass audio to the Realiser over HDMI with a spoofed EDID for the GPU.

All this becomes simpler in 2018 with HDMI 2.1 of course... I'm actually hopeful that we might get a software update for Realiser to support at least part of the HDMI 2.1 spec without needing a board upgrade. Backtracking through Realiser A16 posts/updates:

August 2016:
"We use an HDMI repeater board from MDS in California and they tell us every customer is asking for the same thing. The issue at the moment is the lack of HDMI chips that support 2.1 - in other words it will take time for the IC manufacturers to catch up. However MDS are presently working on a 2.0a board that is a drop-in replacement for the board we use and they see a 2.1 board in the pipeline immediately following that. So in time the A16 will be able to support what you ask. The HDMI board inside the A16 can be easily disconnected from the motherboard, so it should be possible for owners to retrofit themselves, or have it done at the distributor."

April 2017: Realiser upgrades MDS board to support HDMI 2.0a (4K HDR on a single HDMI input)
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...al-3d-audio-headphone-processor/posts/1858178

June 2017: Realiser is now waiting on a new board with HDMI 2.0b
"We can confirm that the A16 will ship with HDMI 2.0b HDCP2.2 functionality on all HDMI inputs and output. The 2.0b provides support for Ultra HD @4kx2k 50/60Hz as well as all three HDR variants HDR10, HLG and Dolby Vision. We are still in the process of establishing an exact shipping date for this new HDMI board from MDS but we hope to take delivery around late August to early September."

While I imagine neither MDS nor Smyth can promise anything - it might be possible that this board might be capable of 2.1 down the track and could receive a firmware update once the spec is finalised?

Probably wishful thinking!

 

[J.Villain]

"While I imagine neither MDS nor Smyth can promise anything - it might be possible that this board might be capable of 2.1 down the track and could receive a firmware update once the spec is finalised?"

I was poking around the MDS site and this is the current board that they list.

http://www.mds.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/HSR-4th_rev1b.pdf

Note the date in the URL.

There is a 8 port board based on the same chip that seems to have better specs.

http://www.mds.com/products/hdmivideo/hsr-82/

So it is possible that MDS has taken the firmware from the 8 port board and applied it to the 4 port board. That is pure conjecture though. If true it would give

• Up to “4K” pixel rates at 24/30 Hz (4:4:4)
• 4K 4:2:0 format video at 60 Hz (no OSD)
• Up to 12 bit Deep Color

The funny thing is that when you read the spec sheet for the Analog Devices ADV7625 chip it doesn't read like it should be able to support what either board is currently doing. They have another one ADV7630 but it doesn't look like it has the juice either. So I am wondering if either Smyth or MDS are going to be switching suppliers, maybe going to a TI or other based solution. But that is pure conjecture.

The OSD stuff is interesting. It would be nice if Smyth was implementing that for measurement tasks but I suspect they are just going to stick with the web interface, at least at launch date .

 

[pcfi]

I did see that board listed, however it also only provides HDMI 2.0b and HDCP 2.2 on a single input.

Smyth appear to be using (or rather holding out for) an MCS board that is not yet listed.

 

[illram]

Thanks for the info.

I guess I could also do what I do now, which is USB audio from my PC and optical out (5.1) from my console to my X7, and just feed all the video straight to the TV.

 

[pcfi]

I guess I could also do what I do now, which is USB audio from my PC

That is the other option, unfortunately it means your PC will render surround streams to 7.1 and send PCM audio to the Realiser instead of the original bitstream from the source. This is fine for many applications, except you will miss out on the extra positional information provided by Atmos/DTS:X that are becoming the new standard for films and games.

 

[illram]

Is that because most motherboard audio chipsets don't support it or is there some technical limitation to USB audio?

 

[pcfi]

I might be wrong here, but my understanding equipment can decode/route Dolby Digital/DTS (5.1, 7.1) signals reasonably easily because they were standards that pre-date HDCP. This has messed things up for everyone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection

Basically, HDCP has forced the sender and receiver of protected content to handshake and support the same protocols. The handshake and protocols for HDCP are not supported over USB or SPDIF - which is why it can't bitstream above 5.1 or 7.1 - it's not because of a bandwidth limitation. The Realiser A16 can actually receive 16 channels over USB 2.0 but only via an ASIO driver which is largely useless outside of Digital Audio software. The regular Windows WDM driver for Realiser only supports 7.1 because that is the most channels it is ever going to receive.

 

[illram]

Friggin' HDCP strikes again. I didn't know USB is not in the trusted digital path or whatever. Lame!

Well, if the Realiser's HDMI board will actually be able to output full chroma at 4K/60hz but not HDR (or 4:2:0 with HDR), that will be good enough for me as that's the limit of my TV (LG E6, no slouch). I can live with the 3ms input lag the Realiser claims it adds (they refer to it as latency...I wish they'd specify input lag as they can mean different things). Until they explicitly say that though, I'll have to be content "settling" for 5.1 or 7.1.... but I think I will survive!

 

[Got the Shakes]

Yep. I actually said in another post elsewhere (maybe here too, but dunno) that I didn't expect these to be out any earlier than Sept/Oct for so many reasons. And I'm actually totally fine with that, especially when you look at the improvements they added along the way, such as the more powerful headphone amp for one of the jacks (even though you can still use your own external for either), on top of the update in April that was the improved HDMI ports for HDR that they said should almost certainly ship with the units in August. Considering they were still showing prototype production models in January, just last month they showed the way the front panels might look in terms of logos and input labels, and they were still using the prototype headphone unit in shows in July, that just screamed to me that they were still slightly behind. Personally, I'm not going to start worrying unless it starts getting pushed back again late October to sometime next year. We already know the A8 is a proven piece of hardware, so it's not like this is just some random Kickstarter vaporware from and unknown company.

In the end, when you consider what the unit was envisioned to do even before all of the very welcome additions, for less than $2,000, even with the delays it's a goddamn steal. On a personal, ironic note; because of the way it was looking last year in regards to HDR, I was going to have to buy a UHD player that had its own seperate audio out so that I could run the video directly to the TV, instead of it going through the A16. Even when it started to look like I might no longer need to (and now it seems I won't), I'm still going to be getting a unit that has two HDMI outs, with one specific for audio simply because that's how the player comes, and it's a really good player.

I think it was a conversation we were having on GAF . I too am ok with the delay since it seems to be resulting in a more complete product and because I now own a 4K tv with HDR. I'm optimistically hoping to receive the A16 in September, but I have a feeling it will be more like early October. If it gets pushed beyond that though I'll probably be a bit frustrated. It was worth the savings to put money down on a preorder, but it does still sting a bit when you have $1,700 tied up in a preorder only to see the date keep slipping. It's not terribly unexpected in the Kickstarter tech space, but can still be a bit frustrating nonetheless.

 

[castleofargh]

reminds me of this greatly optimistic view on projects ^_^