[goldwerger]

The ampsandsound red october. Super happy with how it has been sounding with the Caldera. Definitely going to picking up some other ZMFs to try with it.

love that amp, killer combo..

 

[Honeypot]

One more grand Silver palladium just ordered. Hope they can come in the same box with the caldera to experience it at same time!

 

[Leto Dal]

Curious how it compares to Verite Silver.

Got Verite Silver a month before Palladium release which would have matched my stabilised Atrium oh so well haha

 

[Honeypot]

Curious how it compares to Verite Silver.

Got Verite Silver a month before Palladium release which would have matched my stabilised Atrium oh so well haha

I don't know about the atrium, but given the amount of people saying calderas a bit bright, I believe palladium might adjust it a bit. Combined with copper and silver may have the all in one solution.
Will see when they arrive!

 

[iamoneagain]

I don't know about the atrium, but given the amount of people saying calderas a bit bright, I believe palladium might adjust it a bit. Combined with copper and silver may have the all in one solution.
Will see when they arrive!

The Verite Silver name is misleading because it is also a cooper and silver mix. Not sure how it technically differs from the palladium. I find the Verite Silver cable is a hair less warmth than stock, adding a little bit more clarity. Not an issue on my system but if worried about brightness, I’d probably avoid silver in the cable and go all copper. I actually like the stock cable in my system for extra warmth but it was too short. But once you hear the extra clarity, it’s hard to go back to stock.

Edit:The Verite has a copper inner core and a silver outer core. The Palladium also has copper inner core but outer core is mix of different silvers and copper. So it’s possible you end up with slightly warmer sound than Verite. Cable differences are usually very subtle. Think using mesh would be better way to control brightness and much cheaper.

 

[Honeypot]

The Verite Silver name is misleading because it is also a cooper and silver mix. Not sure how it technically differs from the palladium. I find the Verite Silver cable is a hair less warmth than stock, adding a little bit more clarity. Not an issue on my system but if worried about brightness, I’d probably avoid silver in the cable and go all copper. I actually like the stock cable in my system for extra warmth but it was too short. But once you hear the extra clarity, it’s hard to go back to stock.

Edit:The Verite has a copper inner core and a silver outer core. The Palladium also has copper inner core but outer core is mix of different silvers and copper. So it’s possible you end up with slightly warmer sound than Verite. Cable differences are usually very subtle. Think using mesh would be better way to control brightness and much cheaper.

To my knowledge, electrons always run in the more external side of the wires. This doesn't mean they won't go through the core, as that wire will be connected to the source and the headphones too.
Regarding the combination, as you mention copper usually is "warmer" than silver.
Silver is usually "brighter". This in theory has to do with the transmission coeficient. Being silver less resistant for electrons to cross the wire, usually makes it "faster" conductor. The sound properties are out of my knowledge. But putting that in practice, the palladium has the lower coefficient transmission of the three. Should be in slower than copper itself.
In my opinion it's going to be a cable producing a very slight difference in timing transmission signals. Adding a touch of each conductors. This is very tinny, but our brains may be more capable of what actual science is able to explain. As has been demonstrated over the years.
All that said, I have found more differences in the cables braided styles and construction than the material itself.

 

[iamoneagain]

To my knowledge, electrons always run in the more external side of the wires. This doesn't mean they won't go through the core, as that wire will be connected to the source and the headphones too.
Regarding the combination, as you mention copper usually is "warmer" than silver.
Silver is usually "brighter". This in theory has to do with the transmission coeficient. Being silver less resistant for electrons to cross the wire, usually makes it "faster" conductor. The sound properties are out of my knowledge. But putting that in practice, the palladium has the lower coefficient transmission of the three. Should be in slower than copper itself.
In my opinion it's going to be a cable producing a very slight difference in timing transmission signals. Adding a touch of each conductors. This is very tinny, but our brains may be more capable of what actual science is able to explain. As has been demonstrated over the years.
All that said, I have found more differences in the cables braided styles and construction than the material itself.

Thanks for the explanation. I supposed if I was buying a new cable now, I’d probably would go for the Palladium. And really I was ready to just buy a 8’-10’ OFC cable (if available at the time) and would have been happy. I do like the look and feel of the Verite though. Matches the cooper/coffee stain Caldera and cable is light and flexible. Added clarity was a bonus.

 

[Somafunk]

Regarding the combination, as you mention copper usually is "warmer" than silver.
Silver is usually "brighter".

Putting on my electronic engineering hat I can say this statement is false, the only variable that may change the sound between two different cables is impedance

 

[Spawn300Z]

Putting on my electronic engineering hat I can say this statement is false, the only variable that may change the sound between two different cables is impedance

You’re both correct. I believe you’re just explaining why this anomaly occurs. Due to pure silver having lower resistance than copper.

 

[TheMiddleSky]

More thoughts I've had the last couple days on why I prefer the WA-23 over the Envy....:

After watching @GoldenOne review of the WA-23 and also reading @Torq impressions of the N8 (single ended) vs N8ii (balanced), a light bulb went off for me: the two tube amps that I prefer out of the three I have are the WA-23 and the WA8. Both are single ended, which apparently, as I'm learning, means more 2nd order harmonics. The Envy is balanced, which means those 2nd order harmonics are less, or maybe even cancelled out. I don't quite know enough to know the exactness of this, but it was fascinating reading these things because it clicked with what I've been hearing and absolutely loving - the WA8 and the WA-23 both have something sonically so right sounding to my ears. I actually enjoy listening on both (yes, I prefer the $1900 WA8 over the $8000 Envy!) over the Envy. Envy is amazing in other categories, but the drawback is that it just doesn't have the timbral pull that the other two do, ultimately leading me to not want to listen as long. Just interesting. Both these Woo amps really sound fantastic on all my headphones (ok, Susvara aside - WA8 is not enough power), but I'm convinced they're particularly a great match with ZMF headphones like the Caldera because of how great it is technically and timbrally. I remember going to a seminar with Justin from Ampsandsound and him saying something close to "we like tubes because the sound is closer to the sounds found in nature" and I think this applies here - single ended 2nd order harmonic tube sound with ZMF headphones is a great match.

Pretty cool. Up next, late night musings on the meaning of life... haha!

Actually Feliks Envy is SET amp (Single Ended Triode), as opposed of Push Pull Tube Amp. You can always use Envy with 6.3mm output and may enjoy it over the XLR out. The tube itself is single ended design, then process through transformer to get the balance out (AFAIK). Same thing also happen to Cayin HA300 MK2. You can say that by use the 6.3mm out, actually signal will have shorter path (and of course more harmonic distortion as well).

For Push-Pull Tube Amplifier, the easiest way to notice is the amp will use 4 Tubes for Output.

 

[Honeypot]

I'm not going to argue with an electronics engineer, but I thought resistance is impedance. At least they are both measured with same equipment.
Also this does apply to general electronics. I don't know what to say at an atomic level..

 

[goldwerger]

I'm not going to argue with an electronics engineer, but I thought resistance is impedance. At least they are both measured with same equipment.
Also this does apply to general electronics. I don't know what to say at an atomic level..

A bit off topic (and I am not engineer): in DC they are the same, in AC the impedance is comprised of both resistance (the opposite of conductance, the effect of the material resisting the current, ie not conducting it, and dissipating current into heat) and reactance (which is inductance and capacitance, which return energy to the wire at a delay, effectively also impeding the current; this happens when current flows “back and forth”, an outcome of its alternating)

 

[AcousticMatt]

Actually Feliks Envy is SET amp (Single Ended Triode), as opposed of Push Pull Tube Amp. You can always use Envy with 6.3mm output and may enjoy it over the XLR out. The tube itself is single ended design, then process through transformer to get the balance out (AFAIK). Same thing also happen to Cayin HA300 MK2. You can say that by use the 6.3mm out, actually signal will have shorter path (and of course more harmonic distortion as well).

For Push-Pull Tube Amplifier, the easiest way to notice is the amp will use 4 Tubes for Output.

Hey, thanks for this! Always up for learning more. Interestingly though, I have been using single ended outputs for all headphones (except Susvara) on the Envy.

 

[Honeypot]

You’re both correct. I believe you’re just explaining why this anomaly occurs. Due to pure silver having lower resistance than copper.

I wouldn't like to do this, as it's a copy paste from chatgpt and anybody can do. But it's well explained and I consider it's informative. If it's redundant or in some way out of the scope of the topic, feel free to delete.

Me: In the audiophile world is said copper sounds warmer than silver, which sounds brighter. I want to understand in a scientific way why that happens.

ChatGPT: The perception that copper sounds warmer and silver sounds brighter in the audiophile world is often attributed to the electrical conductivity and material properties of these metals.

Copper generally has a lower electrical conductivity compared to silver. As a result, it can exhibit a slightly higher resistance, causing a subtle damping effect on the audio signal. This damping may contribute to a perception of warmth in the sound. Additionally, copper tends to have a smoother high-frequency roll-off, further enhancing the warm character.

On the other hand, silver's higher conductivity may allow for better transmission of high-frequency signals. This can contribute to a perception of brightness, as the material may deliver a more detailed and extended representation of the high-frequency range.

It's essential to note that these characteristics are subtle, and individual preferences in audio perception can vary widely. The impact of cables on sound quality is a topic of debate in the audiophile community, with some arguing that the differences are negligible. The scientific understanding of these nuances is complex and doesn't always align with subjective perceptions in the realm of audio.

Me: How can a damping effect exhibit a warmer sound? Explain that scientifically

ChatGPT: The perception of a warmer sound due to damping effects in materials involves a combination of factors related to the electrical properties of the conductor and the interaction with the audio signal.

1. **Resistance and Damping:**
- Copper, with its slightly higher electrical resistance compared to silver, can introduce a damping effect on the audio signal as it passes through the conductor.
- This damping effect can be likened to a reduction in the amplitude of certain frequency components of the signal, particularly in the high-frequency range.

2. **Frequency Response:**
- The damping effect, particularly in the high frequencies, alters the frequency response of the audio signal transmitted through the cable.
- The human ear perceives a reduction in high-frequency content as a warmer sound, as higher frequencies are often associated with brightness and sharpness.

3. **Subjective Perception:**
- The perception of warmth in audio is subjective and can be influenced by various factors, including individual preferences, listening environment, and the characteristics of the audio source.

In summary, the damping effect, which attenuates certain high-frequency components of the audio signal, contributes to the perception of warmth. The subjective nature of sound perception, combined with the intricate interplay of electrical properties, makes the scientific explanation complex and not universally agreed upon in the audiophile community. It's important to recognize that these effects are often subtle and can vary among listeners.

Hope it doesn't bother anybody. Just trying to help.

 

[Benesyed]

If your cable isn't made from adamantium/vibranium alloy then you are leaving audio quality at the door.
Sorry not sorry.