[JackarlTwo]

I think the most confusing thing to me, is that recording engineers, musicians, producers etc etc all have different techniques that make what they do interesting and unique. Like why does a Dan Auerbach record sound how it does? It's far more than a response curve.

The idea that an entire industry, whether on our side of playback, or the side of recording could actually agree on some kind of response curve goes so beyond practicality that my mind is having trouble computing what that would mean.

But then on the other side of things even if they did that would also mean that both sides would have to compensate for what the other was doing which would likely change the Harman curve away from what it is already?

It's not that the curves don't have value, it's that there's always going to be too many variables between these two sides, us as humans, etc etc to make any statement scientific or not that we should or shouldn't be agnostic or religious to one thing.

My only argument is for open mindedness.

I simply can't think anymore today. Time to go make some Bokeh videos I guess

Very well said. Rarely do you see such a dispute in other hobbies/ industries (or maybe there is) where our subjective brains play such a large role. Open mindedness is so important.

Although if you like pineapple on pizza you're simply wrong.

 

[unfitstew]

Amirs target uses a modified harman that he then tweaks by ear.

I actually think what would be a better test is a listening test initially followed by the measurements and then a revised listening test and then finally a listening test with equalization

I do absolutely agree with listening before taking the measurements.

Although if you like pineapple on pizza you're simply wrong.

Haha. Pineapple on pizza is great! You should try pickles on pizza!

 

[goldwerger]

 

[iamoneagain]

Very well said. Rarely do you see such a dispute in other hobbies/ industries (or maybe there is) where our subjective brains play such a large role. Open mindedness is so important.

Although if you like pineapple on pizza you're simply wrong.

Haha. It took my wife about 10 years to get me to try pineapples on pizza. I was surprise that it actually works because the sweet sour pineapple is balanced out by the salty Canadian bacon. And to bring this back to Caldera, it’s not a single aspect of the sound but a nice balance of the whole that just works for me.

 

[Pharmaboy]

You should try pickles on pizza!

(Pharmaboy stands at the gates of hell. On every table is a large pizza with pickles. "This is gonna be a long night")

 

[cats4cans]

The recent discussion on measurements made me wonder how long it will be before there’s a phone app to approximate your personal HRTF. Of course I had to look up what that stood for when I first saw it not that long ago.
The big if is how well ear shape correlates to HRTF in the absence of exact driver placement and pad pressure data. A few pictures or a video with a phone camera and a reference object are probably enough to build a decent 3D model of the ear. Where does the ear shape on measurement rigs come from? You should be able to make a rig that could swap different ear models in and out. Getting enough data for a predictive model would be the tedious part. And you wouldn’t get much of the ear canal at all. Is anyone already working on something like that?

 

[vsg28]

The recent discussion on measurements made me wonder how long it will be before there’s a phone app to approximate your personal HRTF. Of course I had to look up what that stood for when I first saw it not that long ago.
The big if is how well ear shape correlates to HRTF in the absence of exact driver placement and pad pressure data. A few pictures or a video with a phone camera and a reference object are probably enough to build a decent 3D model of the ear. Where does the ear shape on measurement rigs come from? You should be able to make a rig that could swap different ear models in and out. Getting enough data for a predictive model would be the tedious part. And you wouldn’t get much of the ear canal at all. Is anyone already working on something like that?

There are some things out there from Apple, Creative, Embody (immerse Virtual Studio) etc to varying degrees of success. Perhaps a topic for general conversation elsewhere but here's a snapshot of my HRTF magnitude plot (one 3D frequency domain slice out of an entire ensemble taken for each point in the pinna recognized by Embody's algorithms and generated as a MATLAB file) for example:

 

[cats4cans]

There are some things out there from Apple, Creative, Embody (Audeze Reveal+) etc to varying degrees of success. Perhaps a topic for general conversation elsewhere but here's a snapshot of my HRTF magnitude plot (one 3D frequency domain slice out of an entire ensemble taken for each point in the pinna recognized by Embody's algorithms and generated as a MATLAB file) for example:

Interesting. And the software then helps you develop a personalized EQ profile based on this model? Very cool. I’m not really an EQ person, but this is fascinating to me. It’s hard to start googling things when you don’t yet know their proper names. Thanks.

 

[geoffalter11]

ASR is a joke. Zach, don't let them get under your skin. They are a cult where there are basically 5 products worth owning. topping D90, Topping A90D, Stealth, Expanse and HD650. How boring... Have you ever noticed that if Amir likes something people laud it for 20 pages. If he doesn't like it they denigrate the product, the designer, and anyone who would buy it for 20 pages. It is seriously a hurtful place where they enjoy making people feel bad about their creations. He has way to much power over a group of people who haven't figured out yet that we don't listen to sine waves, but music and each person hears differently. We all perceive sound and environments with our own senses, not graphs and fake heads to put a headphone on. We are not listening to gear, but music. ASR will never figure that out and they are not worth your time.

 

[Harum7]

Just to clarify, I am not trying to post over there anymore since now I know it's being moderated, none of my posts are awaiting approval since I'm done posting on ASR. I just think it's funny my posts were paused so Amir could drop the hammer.

I did notice in one of his responses he posted this:

"We all need to get behind one standard that is used both in production and playback. Only then we have any hope of hearing what the artist approved (and heard)."

I'm sure @jude could respond to this better, as he's been at a fair amount of studio recordings, but I don't believe studio mixers, producers and musicians are sitting there tuning all their gear to Harman and response to Harman before we even get it, and then if they did, why would we want to EQ it beyond that? Wouldnt we just want a dead flat etymotic like curve @EtyDave ?

This is beyond my comprehension, but the idea of a compound Harman curve because the artist intended it that way seems pretty crazy.

Bro, you are too good to be mingling with those
lunatics over at ASR. Don't stoop down to their level. You are a professional, fine, but don't expose yourself to them. You're Zach from ZMF. Eagles don't hang out with city pigeons. Not kissing butt, but just reminding you.

 

[Karnicopia]

I learned everything I needed to learn about Amir when someone sent him a Yggy to review and to simulate leaving it on for a week so the components inside could come to thermal equilibrium he instead used a heat gun on the case of the Yggy while it was operating to heat it up. I'm not really going to comment on if leaving an electrical device on for a week is going to have a significant impact on results I don't care too much either way but the idea that shooting a heat gun at the case would in any way simulate leaving it on for a week makes me seriously question a lot about the guys qualifications and experience with electronics and honestly at that point just plain common sense.

To add to that it really bothered me that someone sent him an expensive piece of gear to review trusting him to take care of it and he's sitting there shooting a heat gun at the case while it's operating to see what happens to the point where as he mentions himself he could barely hold his hand over the case, after I read that I was shocked that people still send expensive pieces of equipment in to the guy.

Here's the thread (third post down)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ments-of-schiit-yggdrasil-v2-dac.3607/page-27

 

[Toonartist]

Deleted.

I can't be bothered with ASR or let its negativity drift into this thread any more than it has to. Back to Caldera.

 

[Leto Dal]

Well after my ASR post was visible for 30 or so minutes:

At this point I dont think its automatic moderation for new users but manual.

 

[geoffalter11]

Not even worth going over there to fight or discuss. They are so far gone, you will get nowhere with the ASR crowd. They are hook, line and sinker. Enjoy the safe and honest confines of head-fi where honest discourse take place base on the actual sound of the headphone.

 

[iamoneagain]

It’s funny how ASR creeps up into every thread. I’m not sure this is their intention, but they love it when they destroy an expensive product. First, who’d be stupid enough to buy it in the first place. And two, look how bad it measures compared to a $100 item. There were some people that said you could get better results with just $40 iem and at least Arim refuted that full size gives you out of the head experience you won’t get with iem.

You think if you’re going to measure headphones it would be better to have someone with a trained ear. Someone who knows the correct tone and timbre of real instruments. If I was into classical, I wouldn’t mind seeing a headphone rating by an expert on those types of measures.

I do find it insulting that Arim dismissed Zach’s ability to tune headphones even though he’s been making or modding headphones over 12 years. He gave him credit for his craftsmanship but nothing for his tuning. First if he only knew how to build nice looking headphones but knew nothing about sound, I don’t think he would have survived. You might buy it as a collectible but if not enough people like the sound, eventually ZMF would have been dismissed. Now it’s possible this is like alternative music of the 80’s where only a small subset of people loved the music while pop was for the masses. Over time even some of those alternative bands became mainstream like U2 and REM. So not always being the most popular has anything to do with being the best. But based on feedback from most CanJams, either Zach’s sound has caught on or it has always been loved from the beginning but because he mainly sells directly, took a little while to catch on. But for ASR to claim their preference is the right one because of one, and I think flawed scientific test, is crazy.

I can say I’m very happy I took a blind leap of faith about a year ago never hearing any ZMF and spending close to $4000 on the Caldera. Maybe I love it because I convinced myself I had to for that kind of money but I also spent $4000 a few months prior on the Expanse, gave it over two months home trial and ended up returning it, minus $400 restocking fee. That’s a big fee and if money can convince you to like things, it failed with the Expanse. Every morning before the rest of my family wakes up, I look forward to my alone time with the Caldera and that’s priceless.