[zach915m]

Amir is apparently reading this thread and responding over there.

Her Amir, I like what you do and I think it has value. Thank you for creating these discussions as even though we don't see eye to eye and come from different perspectives, there's always something to be gained from these discussions.

I don't know why I was being moderated even as a new user, it's no big deal I'm not here to argue with you. Thanks.

 

[zach915m]

If you wanted accurate/dead flat, then you would want an etymotic-like target curve, but obviously that doesn't take subjective preference into account either. But, scientifically, it's a fairly defensible (and often recreated) curve.

Again, there's nothing wrong with preferring the Harmon curve. A lot of folks love it. But it's not the final arbiter of good or bad. It's a handy tool for reviewers as they can show deviations from the curve and savvy customers often learn what deviations they like. And, while frequency response is a massively important factor, it isn't the only factor, so it can't always be boiled down to just that.

And, the other elephant in the room, is the variability of the measurements themselves. With circumaural headphones, you can get significant variations due to positioning and that needs to be understood and quantified. When I test headphones, I always do multiple fittings per side and average them out. It also allows me to catch the outliers from a bad fitting. For years, there was no standard, nor was there access to lower cost test equipment, so few outside of manufacturers made these types of measurements. Now that there is a commonly understood target, that opens up the gates to measurements that users understand, which is a good thing. But only if presented correctly and if the measurements are carefully done.

I don't think the Harmon curve is billed as "the artist intended it that way", but I think it's presented as "this is what everybody likes, so if it's not this, it's a bad headphone", which is what I take issue with. Hell, I've spent years of my life developing IEMs to a VERY specific curve and, while I believe in the scientific validity of it, I would never suggest that it's what everybody prefers. That's clearly not the case.

I think the most confusing thing to me, is that recording engineers, musicians, producers etc etc all have different techniques that make what they do interesting and unique. Like why does a Dan Auerbach record sound how it does? It's far more than a response curve.

The idea that an entire industry, whether on our side of playback, or the side of recording could actually agree on some kind of response curve goes so beyond practicality that my mind is having trouble computing what that would mean.

But then on the other side of things even if they did that would also mean that both sides would have to compensate for what the other was doing which would likely change the Harman curve away from what it is already?

It's not that the curves don't have value, it's that there's always going to be too many variables between these two sides, us as humans, etc etc to make any statement scientific or not that we should or shouldn't be agnostic or religious to one thing.

My only argument is for open mindedness.

I simply can't think anymore today. Time to go make some Bokeh videos I guess

 

[AnyDave]

Teles can just do more, create more types of tones and effects than just about any other axe. I've heard several acknowledged Telecaster masters live (repeatdly); it's like hearing a symphony.

My fondness for the strat runs deep, though. Examples:

• Jimi Hendrix (saw him 3X, still haven't recovered)
• Jeff Beck (saw him once & heard countless recorded performances over the decades)
• Oz Noy (saw 3X recently--a killer Strat player)

Apparently no one informed Mr. Beck that the Strat had limited tonal capabilities compared to the Tele...

Well, all of those guys have a ton of tonal capabilities with just about anything. And Strat just IS Jimi to me. Angel or Little Wing on anything else wouldn't be the same. The neck/middle split is where it's at.

I actually find Strats very versatile, but I've gotten the point where I prefer a humbucker in the bridge. With a bucker and two singles, I can cop a lot of tones. I was jokingly bagging on Strats earlier, but I actually love them. Particularly on one of my vintage Fender amps.

 

[iamoneagain]

So Peter Gabriel just came out with a new album today and just shows that even for a new record, there is no agreed upon sound. They had two engineers work on all the tracks and decided to just release it as a double album. Whole album by one engineer and then again by second engineer. I’ve only listened to a few tracks but they sound really different from each other. I’ve only seen this done on reissues where you might get a new remaster or the discarded original engineer that the band preferred.

Edit: Now that I’ve listen more I prefer the Dark side mix. I’m actually familiar with some of Tchad Blake’s work. He is know for doing binaural recordings. He did Pearl Jam’s Binaural album. He produced a recording that was done with a dummy head in a cave with Tony Levin called From the Caves of the Iron Mountain. Very interesting out of your head experience

 

[AnyDave]

I think the most confusing thing to me, is that recording engineers, musicians, producers etc etc all have different techniques that make what they do interesting and unique. Like why does a Dan Auerbach record sound how it does? It's far more than a response curve.

The idea that an entire industry, whether on our side of playback, or the side of recording could actually agree on some kind of response curve goes so beyond practicality that my mind is having trouble computing what that would mean.

But then on the other side of things even if they did that would also mean that both sides would have to compensate for what the other was doing which would likely change the Harman curve away from what it is already?

It's not that the curves don't have value, it's that there's always going to be too many variables between these two sides, us as humans, etc etc to make any statement scientific or not that we should or shouldn't be agnostic or religious to one thing.

My only argument is for open mindedness.

I simply can't think anymore today. Time to go make some Bokeh videos I guess

So, here's the fundamental question: is it good for every headphone to sound the same, or is it better if they come in different varieties and people can choose what they prefer? I think that's what this boils down to.

The notion of a fundamentally correct response indicates that they should all converge on the same sound, with the only variable being the inaccuracies from the intended target.

 

[iamoneagain]

So, here's the fundamental question: is it good for every headphone to sound the same, or is it better if they come in different varieties and people can choose what they prefer? I think that's what this boils down to.

The notion of a fundamentally correct response indicates that they should all converge on the same sound, with the only variable being the inaccuracies from the intended target.

Well the other thing Zach brought up is even for the type of headphone, open vs closed, he couldn’t just tune the same. There is much more at play. So for Amir to take Zach’s 7 years of tuning and just throw it in the trash because he didn’t like how it looked on a graph is crazy. Doesn’t sound like he even gave the stock sound much of chance. It would be fine if in the end he didn’t prefer it because of certain preferences. There is some of that when saying he likes a certain speaker set and the Caldera didn’t match that sound. But didn’t seem like he spent any time even getting to know the intended sound or play with any pads.

 

[jlbrach]

When ASR reviewed the m-scaler, he only put it on 2x upscaling, when it goes up to 16x. That sh!t was laughable, but Chord didn't respond. I can respect the "no response" approach, in theory, but it allows ASR to run away with the narrative. Look what happened to the DAVE. Sometimes responding is the best approach. The cult of ASR needs a counter, which I guess is head-fi maybe, but it's always good to hear responses from manufacturers.

I actually wasted a bit of my time on ASR a while back and got myself banned because I dared dispute the running commentary that anyone who spent more than the cost of a Topping amp or DAC was a moron....the entire pages long thread was dedicated to mocking those who buy high end equipment and sarcastically calling them names...I tried to engage in conversation with these people but it was trying to debate the Borg

 

[G8torbyte]

Lad's gone insane. Does he even know what music is???

I just saw his post with that bit and I had to go through it again to be sure I had read it right. Absolutely insane outlook.

I think the true insane lad Bowie would agree that music cannot be defined objectively. It is art in the eye/ear of the beholder.

As an engineer I do appreciate the fundamentals of acoustical science but the enjoyment comes after relaxing on the analytics and let your senses immerse in the experience.

David Bowie's "Sound and Vision" with Beck and his father who is the one conducting the orchestra. Fast forward to about 3 minutes when it all comes together:

 

[goldwerger]

So Peter Gabriel just came out with a new album today and just shows that even for a new record, there is no agreed upon sound. They had two engineers work on all the tracks and decided to just release it as a double album. Whole album by one engineer and then again by second engineer. I’ve only listened to a few tracks but they sound really different from each other. I’ve only seen this done on reissues where you might get a new remaster or the discarded original engineer that the band preferred.

This is so cool!

giving it a listen now and comparing the two versions side by side. Now that's an artist with some obsession... waiting 21 years to release a new studio album, then doing so in two different mixes... love it

 

[Benesyed]

Reviewers should be used as data points. Nothing more nothing less. A person may not and absolutely will not agree with everyone. That or as you said for entertainment.

As for Amir specifically in reference to what he said about Caldera. The problem with Amir is that the Harmon target isn't supposed to be used to be a "if headphone isn't on the target. It is crap." Along with that wanting a headphone to sound purely according to a set target is a subjective preference. Crinnicle has his own target and same thing there. It is purely subjective to want those targets or think they are the ideal sound. Also measurements taken on a rig aren't perfect. It is a measurement on the rigs hrtf. We all have ears of different shapes and sizes. Which is why you can't just look at a graph and "know" exactly how a headphone will sound on your head. I am not saying measurements are bad. They have their place and use case. But they aren't remotely everything. Even ignoring that people have their own preferences. Some like a lot of bass. Some like having extra lower or upper mids. Some prefer the opposite of those. Measurements aren't going to account for that.

Anyways overall I agree with you @Kevintj604.

Amirs target uses a modified harman that he then tweaks by ear.

I actually think what would be a better test is a listening test initially followed by the measurements and then a revised listening test and then finally a listening test with equalization

 

[BassicScience]

This is so cool!

giving it a listen now and comparing the two versions side by side. Now that's an artist with some obsession... waiting 21 years to release a new studio album, then doing so in two different mixes... love it

This kind of reminds me of Gabriel releasing his third solo album (Melt) also in German and French language versions. For my taste, that album is still his high-water mark artistically post-Genesis. The touring band featured Tony Levin and Larry Fast, and I was lucky enough to have great floor seats for the (fantastic) show at The Warfield in San Francisco. Anyhoo, I'm a couple tracks into this latest release (Dark-Side Mix) and... it's better than I expected musically, and the production is stellar!

 

[goldwerger]

This kind of reminds me of Gabriel releasing his third solo album (Melt) also in German and French language versions. For my taste, that album is still his high-water mark artistically post-Genesis. The touring band featured Tony Levin and Larry Fast, and I was lucky enough to have great floor seats for the (fantastic) show at The Warfield in San Francisco. Anyhoo, I'm a couple tracks into this latest release (Dark-Side Mix) and... it's better than I expected musically, and the production is stellar!

nice!!!

and I think we're listening together..

 

[iamoneagain]

So this part is interesting to me especially after hearing Zach say that each headphone behaves differently to tuning.

From Ariim:
That aside, that is precisely what Harman has done in its research into target frequency response. They used a surrogate headphone and equalized it to many other curves of other headphones. The results of that research (and then some) is what I use.
——
So they just used some surrogate headphone and applied different headphone model frequency curves and had people rate those curves? That’s not really the same as people hearing the real headphone with their different pads and structure. I get that they couldn’t swap headphones or that would ruin the test. But the idea of replicating all these headphones on a surrogate headphone must also have also skewed the results. If Zach applied Harman curves to all his headphones, only some of them might give good results. All the other factors would come into play. So the Harman curve is really the best preference for whatever surrogate headphone they used and it’s also an average of all the best choices. Hardly seems like this curve should be your end result.

So in reverse if someone loved the sound of Caldera but just took whatever brand they were using and EQ to the same as the Caldera, I don’t think you’d end up with the same result. Otherwise couldn’t we just own one headphone and download every model’s EQ and replicate let’s say a Susvara or an Abyss 1266. It doesn’t works that way.

 

[engineeringhobo]

Music is meant to be enjoyed, I think people who are too objective often forget that....if it sounds great to someone, who am I to judge?

 

[iamoneagain]

I just realized something, now that roon is owned by Harman, maybe they have a setting where you select your headphone model and they make it sound like the Harman curve. ASR would love it.