[Kevintj604]

Well, I definitely have a dog in this race, because I love the sound of the Caldera and see no need to EQ it to (possibly) "improve" it. And I am entirely unsurprised that Amir's suggested EQ results in bonkers, degraded sound.

(What follows are my opinions on Amir & ASR. Feel free to ignore every word)

Spoiler

I'm at the point where I won't click on any link with "audiosciencereview" in it. This isn't rank prejudice on my part. It's an informed decision that I formed over the past 2-3 years based on:

1. Amir's "reviews" that are little more than gear measuring sprees. They contain little if any commentary on how the "reviewed" item actually sounds. In these "reviews," it is often unclear whether Amir actually listened to the item at all, beyond measuring it
2. Some of those "reviews" harshly trash particular components that actually sound quite good to me & others. This leads me to wonder whether measurements matter less than Amir supposes they do; or that his measurements are (at least on occasion) incomplete or inproperly performed. IMHO it's likely both
3. Amir himself (I think it's a him) has been thoroughly debunked in writing by any number of tech reviewers and observers I would trust ahead of him any day. The general rap on him is that he fudges at least some of his data to push pre-ordained conclusions or to favor this or that audio mfr/brand/bud/ASR devotee
4. Having said all that, perhaps the most annoying thing about ASR is its discussion threads. These are typically stacked with full-on Amir acolytes obsessively discussing measurements made by Amir, their techno/spiritual leader; their own measurements (of unknown veracity & competence); or how reviews of this or that component by normal reviewers outside the ASR belief system, must be fallacious because those reviewers either didn't measure the gear exactly as Amir would, or they did measure the gear, with endless bloviation ensuing about perceived granular flaws with those measurements and any conclusions based on them
   • In these discussions, extreme contempt is often expressed toward those who listen to audio subjectively, for musical enjoyment, and who don't adhere to the ASR belief system. There are spit-flying diatribes along these lines. Particular bile is directed at any audio commentators who fail to conduct blind listening tests (per high ASR orthodoxy) of gear in question
   • The Us-vs-Themism of ASR is reminiscent of certain rabidly opinionated religious, cultural, and political websites I wouldn't waste a second of my lifespan consuming

For reasons of my own, in the past couple years I've done quite a bit of online research on class D amplifiers for 2-channel audio. This is a rapidly developing field undergoing a true paradigm shift as class D sheds its reputation for poor sound and vaults forward, technically & sonically. As it turns out, Amir has several class D "favorites," mfrs and models that measure plu-perfectly and therefore sit on the (ever-changing) ASR Pantheon of the Audio Gods. Conversely, a great many other mfrs and models do not meet with Amir's measurement-based approval. These mfrs and models are thoroughly (and frequently) reviled on various ASR discussion boards. Of course, to learn anything at all about the sound of class D amps, I have to go anywhere but ASR.

I conclude that ASR is the self-proclaimed Church of Audio Orthodoxy, the epicenter of audio "objectivism" in which sound matters not at all, while measurements (and endless technie design ephemera) are all that matter.

I don’t have too much to add here as you’ve echoed my sentiments perfectly. While I follow many reviewers on YouTube and various HeadFi sites I use them with a huge grain of salt and mostly for entertainment and research purposes. I’ve never made a buying decision based on a review nor would I purchase a product based purely on whether I like a manufacturer personally.

While I understand measurements and see the value in them that’s never made me steer away from trying a headphone even if the target curve doesn’t seem to fit my personal preference. I’ve had quite a few surprises in my years of listening to various products that would normally not be my thing based on how it graphs. I don’t think Amir really enjoys music. He comes across as someone who’d rather posture as the smartest in the room as opposed to the funnest.

I listen to headphones for enjoyment not for how they measure on a rig. This week I received an Atrium Closed and I’ve been waking up two hours earlier just to listen to them. It’s as if Zach tuned them to exactly fit my preferences. It wouldn’t matter how they measure to me if they’ve made me lose sleep just wanting to spend time with them. Measurebators like Resolve, Amir, Crinnicle have their purpose but I just don’t think they factor in musical enjoyment and experience into the equation.

 

[unfitstew]

I don’t have too much to add here as you’ve echoed my sentiments perfectly. While I follow many reviewers on YouTube and various HeadFi sites I use them with a huge grain of salt and mostly for entertainment and research purposes. I’ve never made a buying decision based on a review nor would I purchase a product based purely on whether I like a manufacturer personally.

While I understand measurements and see the value in them that’s never made me steer away from trying a headphone even if the target curve doesn’t seem to fit my personal preference. I’ve had quite a few surprises in my years of listening to various products that would normally not be my thing based on how it graphs. I don’t think Amir really enjoys music. He comes across as someone who’d rather posture as the smartest in the room as opposed to the funnest.

I listen to headphones for enjoyment not for how they measure on a rig. This week I received an Atrium Closed and I’ve been waking up two hours earlier just to listen to them. It’s as if Zach tuned them to exactly fit my preferences. It wouldn’t matter how they measure to me if they’ve made me lose sleep just wanting to spend time with them. Measurebators like Resolve, Amir, Crinnicle have their purpose but I just don’t think they factor in musical enjoyment and experience into the equation.

Reviewers should be used as data points. Nothing more nothing less. A person may not and absolutely will not agree with everyone. That or as you said for entertainment.

As for Amir specifically in reference to what he said about Caldera. The problem with Amir is that the Harmon target isn't supposed to be used to be a "if headphone isn't on the target. It is crap." Along with that wanting a headphone to sound purely according to a set target is a subjective preference. Crinnicle has his own target and same thing there. It is purely subjective to want those targets or think they are the ideal sound. Also measurements taken on a rig aren't perfect. It is a measurement on the rigs hrtf. We all have ears of different shapes and sizes. Which is why you can't just look at a graph and "know" exactly how a headphone will sound on your head. I am not saying measurements are bad. They have their place and use case. But they aren't remotely everything. Even ignoring that people have their own preferences. Some like a lot of bass. Some like having extra lower or upper mids. Some prefer the opposite of those. Measurements aren't going to account for that.

Anyways overall I agree with you @Kevintj604.

 

[Pharmaboy]

So we are all mindless beasts just salivating over some zestful colors and going after anyone who pets our heads.

(helpless laughter)

I believe the only rational answer to this question is: 'YUP!"

 

[zach915m]

My response to Amir for anyone who doesn't care to waste their time over at ASR:

@amirm - If you are going to be continuing to ruin this forum responsibly, you really need to get the rig that most/many us manufacturers are using which is the 5128 from B/K. It will accurately give you results above 8K and more properly show the rest. I know the 711 coupler is great since it will reflect the Harman research, but the industry is moving past that as the 711 coupler is dated at this point. Maybe you can develop some findings with your own research more based on what your personal HRTF is as we all have large variances in certain areas.

Further - and as any ZMF owner will tell you, there's 6 sets of different pads for the Caldera, and a titanium mesh for the front that helps tune the headphone to your preferences/HRTF and without testing all of that the way an actual owner is and finding what works best for your own personal HRTF BEFORE doing EQ you are also doing a dis-service to anyone who reads this by stating "facts" without utilizing the headphone in it's designed sonic modular fashion. For example there's three different depths of Caldera pads, all which adjust the distance of the driver to the ear to account for different anatomies, as well as a fully perforated pad that more follows harman.

Please be more responsible and use the headphone the way an owner would, so you can provide accurate information since you have so many followers.

-----------

@solderdude and everyone else who has commented on the tuning of ZMF's. I work with, and know most manufacturers, and have talked at length with all of them about the Harman curve and ofcourse read all the research and as you know designed and tuned many headphones. And for anyone who does this laborious practice of spending years at a time tuning a single headphone, you try many things. I use and own flat panel, DIY, 711 coupled Larson Davis AEC206, and two 5128's from B/K. I measure every headphone and driver I design in various stages and always tune much closer to harman just to try what each headphone will sound like, as I do want to test and utilize the great research that Sean Olive has done because I am not a denier of it and find it useful.

But what Sean Olive will tell you, as any other responsible headphone MFR that actually makes headphones, that the harman curve was meant as a starting point not as a defined endpoint that all headphones need to meet to be enjoyable.

Each system, driver/cups etc has many innate qualities of airflow that are measured in other ways, some that are worth exploring via measurements and some that are experienced more subjectively that are the culmination of many measurements like THD, FR, impulse, CSD, bursts etc. Further, open vs closed full sized headphones vary quite differently in how we each experience them when tuned the same. I know this because when I'm working on the closed version (and vice-versa) of each of our open headphones I tune them to match, and also tune them to harman and then EQ them to harman, and every single time the closed version or open version tuned like the other sound way different. There's just so much more that goes into how we experience sound aside from FR.

I'm pretty sure there's many of you on this forum who enjoy a headphone that isn't tuned exactly to @amirm 's cult of Harman tuning, but are afraid to speak up because of the insane groupthink that happens here. I'm here to tell you that it's OK, because all of us on the side of things that are actually making headphones, know that there are many variations, including liking the Harman curve that can be enjoyable for many different reasons. I implore you to like what you like and stand up for yourself, because there's a reason you like what you like, and you're not alone!!!!

Many people seem to think our headphones are just me sitting in a basement tuning the headphones and making sure they look some special woody way, this is just not true. I do tons of acoustic research and testing on each headphone and they are tuned in very specific ways based on the driver and platform (open/closed/semi-open) that they exist within. I follow advice, thoughts and measurements from many sources before they are released and you'll find that none-of our headphones have .1 // .2 // .3 versions after they are released. If you don't like them because they are not tuned to harman that is totally awesome and cool! But I would implore more of you to actually listen to the Caldera before posting here, and do more work to find what your actual HRTF is because that's what my headphone designing is all about, making a platform that is semi-modular within the pads and damping mesh where a gamut of owners can end up with something they really like.

BONUS COMMENT: If you want a ZMF that is tuned to closer harman, the Atrium Closed with suede pads is quite close. I don't particularly love the way it sounds due to my HRTF, I like the lambskin version that has quite a bit more mid-bass and is below harman in the 4-6 khz area.

BONUS II: If you want a Caldera that conforms closest to harman, use the ultra perf pads, gently EQ to the curve in the area (less has to be done) and then EQ the bass up as the ultra perf will cause a roll-off below 70 HZ. I know about 2 out of hundreds of owners who prefer this, but if that's what you're into, it's the easiest way to get there.

 

[genefruit]

My response to Amir for anyone who doesn't care to waste their time over at ASR:

@amirm - If you are going to be continuing to ruin this forum responsibly,

"...ruin this forum responsibly..."

 

[zach915m]

"...ruin this forum responsibly..."

I didn't mean to say that but I guess it's destiny.

 

[LXMc]

"...ruin this forum responsibly..."

I kind of assumed it was a typo but I hoped it wasn't.

 

[mfgillia]

My response to Amir for anyone who doesn't care to waste their time over at ASR:

@amirm - If you are going to be continuing to ruin this forum responsibly, you really need to get the rig that most/many us manufacturers are using which is the 5128 from B/K. It will accurately give you results above 8K and more properly show the rest. I know the 711 coupler is great since it will reflect the Harman research, but the industry is moving past that as the 711 coupler is dated at this point. Maybe you can develop some findings with your own research more based on what your personal HRTF is as we all have large variances in certain areas.

Further - and as any ZMF owner will tell you, there's 6 sets of different pads for the Caldera, and a titanium mesh for the front that helps tune the headphone to your preferences/HRTF and without testing all of that the way an actual owner is and finding what works best for your own personal HRTF BEFORE doing EQ you are also doing a dis-service to anyone who reads this by stating "facts" without utilizing the headphone in it's designed sonic modular fashion. For example there's three different depths of Caldera pads, all which adjust the distance of the driver to the ear to account for different anatomies, as well as a fully perforated pad that more follows harman.

Please be more responsible and use the headphone the way an owner would, so you can provide accurate information since you have so many followers.

-----------

@solderdude and everyone else who has commented on the tuning of ZMF's. I work with, and know most manufacturers, and have talked at length with all of them about the Harman curve and ofcourse read all the research and as you know designed and tuned many headphones. And for anyone who does this laborious practice of spending years at a time tuning a single headphone, you try many things. I use and own flat panel, DIY, 711 coupled Larson Davis AEC206, and two 5128's from B/K. I measure every headphone and driver I design in various stages and always tune much closer to harman just to try what each headphone will sound like, as I do want to test and utilize the great research that Sean Olive has done because I am not a denier of it and find it useful.

But what Sean Olive will tell you, as any other responsible headphone MFR that actually makes headphones, that the harman curve was meant as a starting point not as a defined endpoint that all headphones need to meet to be enjoyable.

Each system, driver/cups etc has many innate qualities of airflow that are measured in other ways, some that are worth exploring via measurements and some that are experienced more subjectively that are the culmination of many measurements like THD, FR, impulse, CSD, bursts etc. Further, open vs closed full sized headphones vary quite differently in how we each experience them when tuned the same. I know this because when I'm working on the closed version (and vice-versa) of each of our open headphones I tune them to match, and also tune them to harman and then EQ them to harman, and every single time the closed version or open version tuned like the other sound way different. There's just so much more that goes into how we experience sound aside from FR.

I'm pretty sure there's many of you on this forum who enjoy a headphone that isn't tuned exactly to @amirm 's cult of Harman tuning, but are afraid to speak up because of the insane groupthink that happens here. I'm here to tell you that it's OK, because all of us on the side of things that are actually making headphones, know that there are many variations, including liking the Harman curve that can be enjoyable for many different reasons. I implore you to like what you like and stand up for yourself, because there's a reason you like what you like, and you're not alone!!!!

Many people seem to think our headphones are just me sitting in a basement tuning the headphones and making sure they look some special woody way, this is just not true. I do tons of acoustic research and testing on each headphone and they are tuned in very specific ways based on the driver and platform (open/closed/semi-open) that they exist within. I follow advice, thoughts and measurements from many sources before they are released and you'll find that none-of our headphones have .1 // .2 // .3 versions after they are released. If you don't like them because they are not tuned to harman that is totally awesome and cool! But I would implore more of you to actually listen to the Caldera before posting here, and do more work to find what your actual HRTF is because that's what my headphone designing is all about, making a platform that is semi-modular within the pads and damping mesh where a gamut of owners can end up with something they really like.

BONUS COMMENT: If you want a ZMF that is tuned to closer harman, the Atrium Closed with suede pads is quite close. I don't particularly love the way it sounds due to my HRTF, I like the lambskin version that has quite a bit more mid-bass and is below harman in the 4-6 khz area.

BONUS II: If you want a Caldera that conforms closest to harman, use the ultra perf pads, gently EQ to the curve in the area (less has to be done) and then EQ the bass up as the ultra perf will cause a roll-off below 70 HZ. I know about 2 out of hundreds of owners who prefer this, but if that's what you're into, it's the easiest way to get there.

Thanks for posting here. Haven't visited ASR in many, many months after repeatedly witnessing the venom his forum unleashes on people like Goldensound and others who put together coherent, logical counter arguments to Amir's subjective interpretations of his measurements and propensity for making gross generalizations.

Having a measurements first perspective while not my thing is fine but their open hostility towards anyone who has a different perspective than Amir's is just not worth my time.

 

[AnyDave]

My response to Amir for anyone who doesn't care to waste their time over at ASR:

@amirm - If you are going to be continuing to ruin this forum responsibly, you really need to get the rig that most/many us manufacturers are using which is the 5128 from B/K. It will accurately give you results above 8K and more properly show the rest. I know the 711 coupler is great since it will reflect the Harman research, but the industry is moving past that as the 711 coupler is dated at this point. Maybe you can develop some findings with your own research more based on what your personal HRTF is as we all have large variances in certain areas.

Further - and as any ZMF owner will tell you, there's 6 sets of different pads for the Caldera, and a titanium mesh for the front that helps tune the headphone to your preferences/HRTF and without testing all of that the way an actual owner is and finding what works best for your own personal HRTF BEFORE doing EQ you are also doing a dis-service to anyone who reads this by stating "facts" without utilizing the headphone in it's designed sonic modular fashion. For example there's three different depths of Caldera pads, all which adjust the distance of the driver to the ear to account for different anatomies, as well as a fully perforated pad that more follows harman.

Please be more responsible and use the headphone the way an owner would, so you can provide accurate information since you have so many followers.

-----------

@solderdude and everyone else who has commented on the tuning of ZMF's. I work with, and know most manufacturers, and have talked at length with all of them about the Harman curve and ofcourse read all the research and as you know designed and tuned many headphones. And for anyone who does this laborious practice of spending years at a time tuning a single headphone, you try many things. I use and own flat panel, DIY, 711 coupled Larson Davis AEC206, and two 5128's from B/K. I measure every headphone and driver I design in various stages and always tune much closer to harman just to try what each headphone will sound like, as I do want to test and utilize the great research that Sean Olive has done because I am not a denier of it and find it useful.

But what Sean Olive will tell you, as any other responsible headphone MFR that actually makes headphones, that the harman curve was meant as a starting point not as a defined endpoint that all headphones need to meet to be enjoyable.

Each system, driver/cups etc has many innate qualities of airflow that are measured in other ways, some that are worth exploring via measurements and some that are experienced more subjectively that are the culmination of many measurements like THD, FR, impulse, CSD, bursts etc. Further, open vs closed full sized headphones vary quite differently in how we each experience them when tuned the same. I know this because when I'm working on the closed version (and vice-versa) of each of our open headphones I tune them to match, and also tune them to harman and then EQ them to harman, and every single time the closed version or open version tuned like the other sound way different. There's just so much more that goes into how we experience sound aside from FR.

I'm pretty sure there's many of you on this forum who enjoy a headphone that isn't tuned exactly to @amirm 's cult of Harman tuning, but are afraid to speak up because of the insane groupthink that happens here. I'm here to tell you that it's OK, because all of us on the side of things that are actually making headphones, know that there are many variations, including liking the Harman curve that can be enjoyable for many different reasons. I implore you to like what you like and stand up for yourself, because there's a reason you like what you like, and you're not alone!!!!

Many people seem to think our headphones are just me sitting in a basement tuning the headphones and making sure they look some special woody way, this is just not true. I do tons of acoustic research and testing on each headphone and they are tuned in very specific ways based on the driver and platform (open/closed/semi-open) that they exist within. I follow advice, thoughts and measurements from many sources before they are released and you'll find that none-of our headphones have .1 // .2 // .3 versions after they are released. If you don't like them because they are not tuned to harman that is totally awesome and cool! But I would implore more of you to actually listen to the Caldera before posting here, and do more work to find what your actual HRTF is because that's what my headphone designing is all about, making a platform that is semi-modular within the pads and damping mesh where a gamut of owners can end up with something they really like.

BONUS COMMENT: If you want a ZMF that is tuned to closer harman, the Atrium Closed with suede pads is quite close. I don't particularly love the way it sounds due to my HRTF, I like the lambskin version that has quite a bit more mid-bass and is below harman in the 4-6 khz area.

BONUS II: If you want a Caldera that conforms closest to harman, use the ultra perf pads, gently EQ to the curve in the area (less has to be done) and then EQ the bass up as the ultra perf will cause a roll-off below 70 HZ. I know about 2 out of hundreds of owners who prefer this, but if that's what you're into, it's the easiest way to get there.

To me, there's nothing inherently wrong with the Harmon curve. I find things tuned to it are generally pleasant and I do have quite a lot of respect for Sean Olive.

I think it's less about the test equipment used (I use IEC60318-4 aka 711 couplers all the time and they are a useful development and production tool. To me, the important thing to remember is that the Harmon curve is a subjective preference curve. In that regard, it's a useful review tool as it's a known benchmark. But grading everything against it is using it as an objective fact, which isn't what it really is. I need to revisit the papers as I've read them too long ago, but if I remember correctly, the curve is an average preference curve, so it's a blend of the preferred response of the subjects within the study. That's not the same as defining a singular preference curve that everybody agrees is perfect; it's a blend. I also believe that the adjustments allowed by the test subjects were somewhat finite in nature, so it's not the same as somebody using a 31 band EQ and adjusting with any degree of granularity, nor would it really make sense for a test like that.

So, there's a big caveat here that I should reread to make sure I haven't misremembered anything (which is possible). But, in general, I don't think there's anything absolute about the Harmon curve, it's just a good representation of what many (and possibly most) people think is a good response.

I remember arguments between Sean Olive and Mead Killion (founder of Etymotic and my old boss) years before the research was done where they debated the importance of bass boost in earphones and the value of subjective preference vs accuracy. The Harmon studies did a great job quantifying that, but it's a preference curve, not an accuracy curve.

 

[AsciiJC]

Target curves are cool and all... but we should go back to making our own and follow those for personal tuning preferences because its more fun that way!

Jokes aside (kind of) I have always found the Harman curve to be, while incredibly important, not my preference. After all its called a preference curve. When I am making my own headphones, I just slap stuff together and follow the basic elements of acoustics, much like what zach said, I am the one to hide in a basement and make headphones for fun!

Really hope you learn thou Amir, change is a very real thing, and things move on.

 

[vsg28]

Target curves are cool and all... but we should go back to making our own and follow those for personal tuning preferences because its more fun that way!

Jokes aside (kind of) I have always found the Harman curve to be, while incredibly important, not my preference. After all its called a preference curve. When I am making my own headphones, I just slap stuff together and follow the basic elements of acoustics, much like what zach said, I am the one to hide in a basement and make headphones for fun!

Really hope you learn thou Amir, change is a very real thing, and things move on.

Amir isn't really active here though, but yes the sentiment is important for non-Amirs to be aware of as well.

 

[zach915m]

Well looks like I've been moderated over there(asr), not sure what I said that wasn't alowed but my last post is "awaiting moderator approval." I guess it's time to move on

 

[Kevintj604]

Well looks like I've been moderated over there(asr), not sure what I said that wasn't alowed but my last post is "awaiting moderator approval." I guess it's time to move on

I find the mods on HeadFi will do this to try and keep the conversation overly positive so if there's any line of disagreement they'll immediately remove the post. This has happened to me personally on quite a few of the comments that I've posted as I tend to give more spicy takes and by my own admission I can come across with quite a blunt and prickly demeanor.

I don't think you said anything overly negative or controversial though so I have no idea why they would moderate your thoughts.

I fully agree with you though along with probably 99% of this thread and hope you don't let people like Amir ruin the fun.

 

[Leto Dal]

Well looks like I've been moderated over there(asr), not sure what I said that wasn't alowed but my last post is "awaiting moderator approval." I guess it's time to move on

The ASR Ultramarine approach, purge the heretic.

 

[GoldenSound]

Well looks like I've been moderated over there(asr), not sure what I said that wasn't alowed but my last post is "awaiting moderator approval." I guess it's time to move on

One would think a forum supposedly intended for scientific purposes would welcome constructive discussion and debate on topics like this.....
Unfortunately that's repeatedly been shown not to be the case