[skamp]

Any kind of interference with an effect on USB data transmission would affect bits (zeros and ones), indiscriminately.

I don't think I've ever heard errors in USB data transmission, but I suppose they would sound like glitches (like clicks and pops or scrambled audio), because of the randomness of the errors, thereby breaking the coherency of the data. They definitely wouldn't selectively choose which bits to change so as to keep the audio signal's coherency (i.e. no glitches) and alter some property of it (warmth, soundstage and whatnot). You would need some pretty smart "alteration" with lots of coherent (i.e. selective) changes for that to happen.

In other words: if you change a single bit in a packet of structured (meaningful) data, you break it. It turns into gibberish. It's not a slight or subtle alteration. It can turn the number 127 into 255 [*], double the original value. In contrast, if you superimpose a 60Hz hum on an analog signal, well, you still get the original music, with an added bass hum.

P.S. I just thought of an example of digital transmission errors that you might have had the occasion to witness: Over The Air digital TV. Every now and then, you get errors. What do you see and hear? Warmer colors? Constricted soundstage? Nope. What you see is blocks of pixels that look completely wrong. When the transmission is really bad, the image is completely garbled. Sound also gets affected, and it sounds like, well, glitches. Nothing subtle about it.

If that doesn't convince you, or at least makes you doubt your beliefs, I don't know what will.

[*] 127 (base 10) is 01111111 in binary (base 2). Change the 0 into 1 and you get 11111111, which is 255.

 

[korzena]

Originally Posted by LizardKing1 


Hell, not even an analog cable can change the soundstage.

Quote:

Have you actually tried out a few cables or is this all theoretical?
 

I am starting to suspect that some people enjoy READING audio gear more than LISTENING to it
 

 

[Currawong]

The OP is asking for "your experience" not the science.

 

[LizardKing1]

I'm pretty sure USB has error correction for audio.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LizardKing1 

Hell, not even an analog cable can change the soundstage.

I am starting to suspect that some people enjoy READING audio gear more than LISTENING to it

Of course it's much easier to assume I'm just ignorant than to actually say something with any kind of intelectual weight =)
None of the cables I ever tried ever came close to changing soundstage. Maybe I'm just more honest about what I hear, I believe in burn-in and never heard in difference after 100 hours in my gear. And no, I never tried any 100$ unobtanium cables, maybe only those change soundstage. What a coincidence, huh? I guess if you told us that your USB cable changed the lyrics to your favorite songs, I'd have to justify how impossible that is with testing multiple cables (How awesome would that be. Just standing in an audio shop, trying all cables, yelling "No, it's still Come as you are on this one!")
In stead of assuming I don't know what I'm talking about, how about you explain how is it possible that copper wire can change a visual interpretation of sound. Then please move on to explain how does binary code manage it.

 

[korzena]

Quote:

I'm pretty sure USB has error correction for audio.
 
Of course it's much easier to assume I'm just ignorant than to actually say something with any kind of intelectual weight =)
None of the cables I ever tried ever came close to changing soundstage. Maybe I'm just more honest about what I hear, I believe in burn-in and never heard in difference after 100 hours in my gear. And no, I never tried any 100$ unobtanium cables, maybe only those change soundstage. What a coincidence, huh? I guess if you told us that your USB cable changed the lyrics to your favorite songs, I'd have to justify how impossible that is with testing multiple cables (How awesome would that be. Just standing in an audio shop, trying all cables, yelling "No, it's still Come as you are on this one!")
In stead of assuming I don't know what I'm talking about, how about you explain how is it possible that copper wire can change a visual interpretation of sound. Then please move on to explain how does binary code manage it.

 
Sorry if you felt offended in any way. It was not my intention.
The point of this thread is, what Currawong correctly reminded, people's experiences and their listening impressions.
Although I appreciate the scientific input from you and other guys, it is not what I asked about. If I would like to know the science behind the cables, I would have asked about it.  I've made a mistake by not reminding about it earlier in the thread and letting the discussion go off topic.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

I'm pretty sure USB has error correction for audio.
 

I checked. Regular USB data transmission uses CRC, but USB audio doesn't.
 
This has been discussed here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/364565/usb-cable-and-sound-quality/120
and here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/417785/yes-virgina-there-is-a-difference-in-usb-cables/150#post_7254553
 
Unfortunately the only experiment I've done so far was switch the longer and shorter lengths of my Oyaide USB cables that go from my computer to USB PSU to Audiophilleo. I did it for convenience, wanting the PSU closer to my computer instead of with my rig, but I felt the sound was worse. Who knows if it wasn't just all in my head, but the longer length is 5m and the shorter 70cm, so it could have had something to do with the cable passing a bunch of power boards and cables for my computer gear on the way to my audio rack.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LizardKing1 

 
I am starting to suspect that some people enjoy READING audio gear more than LISTENING to it
 

This is a significant statement!  I do enjoy reading about audio stuffs, but I also enjoy listening to it!

---

 
My experience with USB cables is that i have some that seem to work better than others when used as interconnects between my DAC and the digital source.
 
All of my USB cables seem to work equally well for data transmission.  This would fit with what Currawong said about the nature of streaming digital audio vs. data transmission.
 
The better the quality of data, i.e. 32kb/s vs. 320kb/s, etc, it seems that artifacts which seem to be attributable to the cable become more apparent.  Program material also seems to be important in being able to hear artifacts.  Very well recorded analog string and wind instruments seem to be much more discriminatory than do percussive type recordings for the most part.  Another thing is the character of the artifacts that I encounter are not at all musically, or frequency based, related, or correlated.  They all present themselves more like subtle dropouts and the like.
 
This is my experience.  I offer no absolute theory as to why.  That's another discussion and another thread.
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

....... They definitely wouldn't selectively choose which bits to change so as to keep the audio signal's coherency (i.e. no glitches) and alter some property of it (warmth, soundstage and whatnot). You would need some pretty smart "alteration" with lots of coherent (i.e. selective) changes for that to happen.
 

.........

Exactly. A lot is being attributed to a bit of cable by claims it can inherantly alter SQ. How is wire able to do such and very cleverly and selectively alter data to say 'improve bass'?
 
 

 

[korzena]

Quote:

Exactly. A lot is being attributed to a bit of cable by claims it can inherantly alter SQ. How is wire able to do such and very cleverly and selectively alter data to say 'improve bass'?
 
 

Please, not again. There are other threads dedicated to this topic. Pleeeaaase)
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Please, not again. There are other threads dedicated to this topic. Pleeeaaase)
 

OK, I shall potter back to my cave and say no more on the subject.
 

 

[korzena]

Quote:

Please, not again. There are other threads dedicated to this topic. Pleeeaaase)
 

 
Thanks
Currawong mentioned before the following two threads about the topic. If you'd like to, here they are:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/364565/usb-cable-and-sound-quality/120
and here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/417785/yes-virgina-there-is-a-difference-in-usb-cables/150#post_7254553

 

 

[LizardKing1]

I'm not trying to re-ignite this, but all those links seem to prove (and in one of them a computer engineer says audio does have CRC) is that there is no error correction for audio streaming. This still means that up to a threshold of distortion, which in a shielded spec cable is still high, the signal comes out bit-perfect. And still, like Skamp and Prog Rock Man said, even if the information is so distorted it can't get decoded properly, this would never reveal itself in things like frequency response changes, more warmth or (I'm sorry, but I love mentioning this) soundstage. It would show up as pops and mute parts of songs. I won't post again in a way that can lead to a debate, I understand this thread is for personal observations and not science discussion, but I thought I should clear up what those links meant. And thanks to Currawong for posting them.

 

[korzena]

Quote:

I'm not trying to re-ignite this, but all those links seem to prove (and in one of them a computer engineer says audio does have CRC) is that there is no error correction for audio streaming. This still means that up to a threshold of distortion, which in a shielded spec cable is still high, the signal comes out bit-perfect. And still, like Skamp and Prog Rock Man said, even if the information is so distorted it can't get decoded properly, this would never reveal itself in things like frequency response changes, more warmth or (I'm sorry, but I love mentioning this) soundstage. It would show up as pops and mute parts of songs. I won't post again in a way that can lead to a debate, I understand this thread is for personal observations and not science discussion, but I thought I should clear up what those links meant. And thanks to Currawong for posting them.

OK, I am out of this thread.
 
Thank you all for their input!
 

 

[sajesak]

Some people have reported it makes a difference. But the fact is, unless the cable is broken or defective in some way, there's close to zero chance that it could change the sound in a uniform way. Maybe it'll reduce the number of errors (that is, instead of being one in a billion bits it'll be one in ten billion, or something - but even then error correction can usually catch and fix most errors, and that's such a tiny error rate that it won't be discernible by humans) but it won't make any measurable difference once it actually reaches the headphones.

I'm not trying to be a thread bomber or anything, but I'm just trying to be honest here - high-end USB cables are probably the biggest rip-off around. I simply don't see how anyone can justify a $3500 USB cable.

But if you want to spend a little more to have pretty audiophile-looking cable, by all means go right ahead - just, don't go too crazy on your spending, since all you're really buying is appearance. But I really wouldn't spend any more than $50 (honestly if it were me I wouldn't spend any more than $10, maybe $20).

There isn't really much more for me to say though, this has been debated to death a few times already in a few different threads on usb cable manufacturers...one thing I can point out though, is the actual guys who made the USB spec have said that audiophile-grade USB cables can't possibly make any difference.

I have connected a LG DVD drive to my Auralic Ares G1.1 via a USB cable for CD playing and ripping. Already it outperforms my Audiolab 6000 CDT transport. I got several Amazon $10 variety inexpensive cables to audition not thinking it would make much of a difference. Wrong. An Audioquest Cinnamon cable bested all the inexpensive cables so I tried an Audioquest Carbon. Yet another improvement. I have return rights on the Audioquest cables and if nothing else turns up, I will keep the Carbon. Actually the Carbon was suggested by the dealer where I got the 1.1.
I won't be going crazy on the USB cable but something affordable that produces good sound would be the goal. Your experience?

 

[eastsoutheast]

I would never dare try and tell someone what the did/didn’t or could/couldn’t hear as that would require me to be them!

I have spent lots of money on so called high end cables during my time as a HiFi and AV enthusiast. It’s a hobby that has and continues to give me immense pleasure.

If an improvement was real it would be measurable and cable company’s would use the measurements to demonstrate the benefits of their wares. I have compared cheap and expensive USB cables and hear no difference as I have done with HDMI cables over the years. I haven’t seen one company show a measurable improvement or difference with their cables VS alternatives.

Does this mean I am happy using cheap non descript cables to connect my equipment, Nope. What it does mean though is I buy well built and good looking cables at a reasonable cost (>£100) and spend the bulk of my budget where it does make a difference, equipment and room.