[burnspbesq]

Threads like this make me laugh.
Quite some time ago, a member of our dear forum contacted USB.org, a website created by the inventors of the USB data transfer protocol. He asked if there might be any difference between 2 to-spec USB cables, if one used better materials. The question was an eloquent no. It's impossible. I can't remember on which thread it was, and I don't really want to look that hard.
I'm not saying it isn't fun to believe that there are magic fairies in our digital cables, and that spending 500$ will make the fairies go away, I'm just concerned that a new member might see this and actually believe there might be something wrong with his Monoprice USB cable. Other than that carry on.

That seems logical, but my ears tell a different story.

 

[DaBomb77766]

Quote:

That seems logical, but my ears tell a different story.

I think it's your brain that's telling the different story, not that it makes any difference in the end I guess.

 

[sonq]

 
It doesn't hurt to try and listen the cable. In my opinion it's the best way to know. Measurements and science come second - after experience (at least for me).
Remember, there was a time when people claimed coaxial digital cables cannot sound differently...well I have 3 different digital cables and I can hear differences between each of them.
 
 

There was a time when people claimed all amps with similar power rating sounds alike and even preached by the now defunct High Fedility magazine. Not too long ago people even assumed all CD players sound alike since the slogan says "perfect sound forever".

To some, differences that can't be measured does not exist. Let's not forget what can't be measured today doesn't mean it can't be measured tomorrow.

Edit: should be high-fidelity mag

 

[Lil' Knight]

That seems logical, but my ears tell a different story.

That's exactly what 'audiophile' cable companies want to hear.

 

[Chris_Himself]

Quote:

That's exactly what 'audiophile' cable companies want to hear.

 
I dunno I swear my Canon printer sounds better through my particular USB cable

 

[scootermafia]

My advice is to figure all this out from personal experience rather than assuming that printers or mobile hard drives use USB in the same capacity as DACs.  

 

[LizardKing1]

 
Quote:

It doesn't hurt to try and listen the cable. In my opinion it's the best way to know. Measurements and science come second - after experience (at least for me).
Remember, there was a time when people claimed coaxial digital cables cannot sound differently...well I have 3 different digital cables and I can hear differences between each of them.

Well literally thousands of people all over the world say they speak with their dead relatives. If we take personal experience over science, we have to account for everything everyone claims to have happened, from alien abductions to sightings of the Holy Mary. Now I'm not saying you should listen to graphs, obviously enjoyment is a subjective thing. But if we know there isn't the physical possibility of a difference, then whatever nuance you might enjoy more in one of the cables is only present in your head. If you do a blind test with 30 trials this should be pretty obvious. It's not like USB is a miracle of nature, it was created by mankind. It's extensively studied and beyond any doubt that it simply can't create a better or worse sound unless you use +50ft cables in something like an airport.
 
Some of things here are plainly hilarious. Reading that a USB cable can increase soundstage for example. Soundstage is an aural perception of space, our body interprets differences in frequency response that it associates with a certain space. It is completely dependent on the stereo recording, the headphone's driver and the shell (wether it's open, how large it is). It is completely impossible that a USB cable can improve soundstage. Now some people report that it did. All I'm saying is, this difference is completely psychological. It just kind of saddens me to see companies like AudioQuest actually making fortunes out of people's imagination.

 

[skamp]

It doesn't hurt to try and listen the cable. In my opinion it's the best way to know. Measurements and science come second - after experience (at least for me).

In my experience, the earth is flat. If the earth was round, when walking for a really long time in a straight line, you would start experiencing a downward slope.

I'm a walker, alright? I've walked hundreds of miles. I have never, EVER, experienced a downward slope, except when walking down a hill.

Valleys are flat. The earth is flat. It's my personal experience from many years of walking. No measurement can change my mind. You better believe me.

:rolleyes:

 

[korzena]

Quote:

 

Well literally thousands of people all over the world say they speak with their dead relatives. If we take personal experience over science, we have to account for everything everyone claims to have happened, from alien abductions to sightings of the Holy Mary. Now I'm not saying you should listen to graphs, obviously enjoyment is a subjective thing. But if we know there isn't the physical possibility of a difference, then whatever nuance you might enjoy more in one of the cables is only present in your head. If you do a blind test with 30 trials this should be pretty obvious. It's not like USB is a miracle of nature, it was created by mankind. It's extensively studied and beyond any doubt that it simply can't create a better or worse sound unless you use +50ft cables in something like an airport.
 
Some of things here are plainly hilarious. Reading that a USB cable can increase soundstage for example. Soundstage is an aural perception of space, our body interprets differences in frequency response that it associates with a certain space. It is completely dependent on the stereo recording, the headphone's driver and the shell (wether it's open, how large it is). It is completely impossible that a USB cable can improve soundstage. Now some people report that it did. All I'm saying is, this difference is completely psychological. It just kind of saddens me to see companies like AudioQuest actually making fortunes out of people's imagination.

 
Personally I don't buy audio stuff that doesn't make a distinct difference in sound to my ears (not only to my psyche).
I agree there are lots of psychological biases we should be beware of especially in audio world. But it's really up to the individual what decision one makes. If someone is foolish enough to buy audio gear on marketing hype or hot 'reviews' that don't really find reflection in reality that's his/her problem (and I suppose this problem won't relate only to audio products for such a person).
 
I myself like to read many reviews and get to know opinions and personal impressions about gear to know what to try and test myself. I did this in regards to USB cables. I found out that some people said they could tell the difference, some they didn't.
I finally managed to borrow a better USB cable and listen to it in order to decide for myself. The cable appeared not to make any audible difference in my system so I decided not to buy it.
But I still don't exclude possibility that in some systems some USB cables can make difference. Well, I don't really know this as I haven't heard this myself, but I prefer to keep my opinion in the 'gray zone' than completely exclude this possibility only because scientific measurements don't support it.
 
Science proved false many times, too. Every few/several years scientists make new discoveries and change their opinions, too. This is why in this hobby, and especially in this hobby, which is about pleasure and experience for me, I put subjective opinions and my personal impressions before science.

 

[sonq]

Quote:

Some of things here are plainly hilarious. Reading that a USB cable can increase soundstage for example. Soundstage is an aural perception of space, our body interprets differences in frequency response that it associates with a certain space. It is completely dependent on the stereo recording, the headphone's driver and the shell (wether it's open, how large it is). It is completely impossible that a USB cable can improve soundstage. Now some people report that it did. All I'm saying is, this difference is completely psychological. It just kind of saddens me to see companies like AudioQuest actually making fortunes out of people's imagination.

If what you mentioned is a fact, then all forms of digital cable should sound the same, and every major cable manufacturers out there are making a fortune out of people's imagination.
 
 

 

[skamp]

I don't know about every manufacturer, but some of them, sure...

 

[Stormfriend]

Quote:

 All I'm saying is, this difference is completely psychological.

I thought my generic cable had more air than the Carbon, but it turns out my memory was deceiving me and compared back to back they were the same.  They also had identical soundstages.  But they had different amounts of presence and bite.  Which of those observations is psychological, and which was real? 
 
Was the identical soundstage psychological or real?
Was the identical air psychological or real?
Was the difference in presence psychological or real?
Was the difference in bite psychological or real?
 
If all my observations are purely psychological then I can never know what's real and what isn't (I'm insane).  If they're not all psychological then which ones should I believe and which ones should I dismiss?  If my hearing, health, mood, environment, pride of ownership and other factors are identical for all these observations then how can I make a judgement as to which of my observations must be wrong, except through repeatedly testing them?  How would science function if we discarded any observation that didn't match our accepted wisdom?  You're asking me to accept the divine revelation of the USB spec!
 
Talking of which, how do you know that your interpretation of the spec wasn't psychologically influenced by your current beliefs?  
 
 

 

[liamstrain]

Quote:

If all my observations are purely psychological then I can never know what's real and what isn't (I'm insane).  If they're not all psychological then which ones should I believe and which ones should I dismiss?  If my hearing, health, mood, environment, pride of ownership and other factors are identical for all these observations then how can I make a judgement as to which of my observations must be wrong, except through repeatedly testing them?  How would science function if we discarded any observation that didn't match our accepted wisdom?  You're asking me to accept the divine revelation of the USB spec!
 
Talking of which, how do you know that your interpretation of the spec wasn't psychologically influenced by your current beliefs?  
 
 

 
Observation is great, but it has limitations. This is where well constructed ABX and double blind testing can help illuminate, along with objective measurements. All these methods work in concert, and you determine facts by a preponderance of evidences. We know and have amply demonstrated that sighted listening tests are subject to large amounts of unconscious bias. That doesn't mean you cannot learn anything from the listening - but it does mean you need to check your experiences against objective data to corroborate, before considering it evidence of anything. If the observation does not match up with the measurements and theory - then you need to find out why (and known bias is a big problem) ... this is not the same as discarding observation. 

 

[Stormfriend]

Quote:

Observation is great, but it has limitations. This is where well constructed ABX and double blind testing can help illuminate, along with objective measurements. All these methods work in concert, and you determine facts by a preponderance of evidences. We know and have amply demonstrated that sighted listening tests are subject to large amounts of unconscious bias. That doesn't mean you cannot learn anything from the listening - but it does mean you need to check your experiences against objective data to corroborate, before considering it evidence of anything. If the observation does not match up with the measurements and theory - then you need to find out why (and known bias is a big problem) ... this is not the same as discarding observation. 

 
I agree completely, I just wish someone had got hold of the Audioquest Carbon, Cardas Clear and Wireworld Starlight and done those A/B tests for me!
 
My comments were directed at those who say there cannot be a difference because the specification precludes it, without even doing any testing.  That's where discarding observation comes in.
 

 

[liamstrain]

There should not be a difference. There is no theory that supports that there could be. But I would be curious to see a well run ABX on these cables as well.