Xduoo Amplifiers
Jan 25, 2022 at 9:32 AM Post #961 of 2,015
I ordered the MT-602 last night from Apos. It would have been five weeks from Amazon.ca. I also ordered JAN 5654W's and Voshkods from Amazon since I had a gift card.

I was looking for some cheap fun and this is it. Now, just the waiting.
 
Jan 25, 2022 at 10:03 AM Post #962 of 2,015
Yea, i am not unused to these kinds of issues, as i am an "old hifi nerd". And as such i've gotten some decent cables (Wireworld cables all around) as well as a Topping HS01 galvanic isolator for the USB. The HS01 takes care of a lot of issues actually.
The hum is still there if i disconnect the RCA cables, which is why i believe it originates within the amp somehow. With that said i could try some different power cables to see if there's any kind of RFI or whatever getting in that way.
But thanks for the response! I know a lot of people modify their DV amps for this reason, and that was actually one of the reasons i got the TA-26 in stead of a DV, cause it simply seem to be a better built amp.
I'll do some digging to see what may alleviate it, but so far i think i can exclude groundloop issues based on the disconnect in usb and the DAC which has a non-grounded psu (RME adi-2 fs).
Yup, if you are getting hum without the RCA connection, it's coming from your power / ground, or one of your tubes is exhibiting the hum some people have reported with tube-rolling new tubes on the Darkvoice.
I also experienced some 'hum' mainly in the right earcup with smaller impedance headpones.
It started to dim and disappear in the end after around 40 hours of burn-in.

With headphones having 600Ohm impedance, I could not hear it at all, from the start.

You could try what @hmscott suggested below, you might experience a hum related to something else.
@alexeyi - I have heard that tube "burn-in" reduces hum, but it was for certain tubes when tube rolling on the DarkVoice, and the TA-26 is supposed to have carefully selected tubes to keep their customers from worrying about "new tube" problems, if they stick with the stock tubes.
 
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Jan 25, 2022 at 10:31 AM Post #963 of 2,015
Yup, if you are getting hum without the RCA connection, it's coming from your power / ground, or one of your tubes is exhibiting the hum some people have reported with tube-rolling new tubes on the Darkvoice.

@alexeyi - I have heard that tube "burn-in" reduces hum, but it was for certain tubes when tube rolling on the DarkVoice, and the TA-26 is supposed to have carefully selected tubes to keep their customers from worrying about "new tube" problems, if they stick with the stock tubes.

Perhaps both of your TA-26s got a batch of:

“嘿,我们今天必须运送这些 TA-26!,把老化架上的那些管子给我一些!”

“他们还没有完成!他们只运行了一半的老化周期!”

“艰难的!反正他们会在剩下的路中烧坏管子!”

Translate Chinese to English... :)

It is not my first tube amp, so I knew what I have to do, but you might be right. Since then, I changed the stock tubes, so I can’t check that anymore, but thanks for the hint :smile:
 
Jan 25, 2022 at 10:39 AM Post #964 of 2,015
For me the stock tubes makes no difference when it comes to the hum. Maybe the transformer is having issues with the 230-240v that comes out of the outlet here, as opposed to the 220v often specced into electrical devices for the general European market.
It really shouldn't though, as it is well within spec for the grid to run a little hot, but still.
Who knows. It's not an issue with either my TA-20 or my Little Dot Mk1+, which brings me back to the amp/transformer itself.
Anyways, it's not "bad" by any means, i can live with it just fine, so if i can't figure it out or remedy it it's not that big a deal.
 
Jan 25, 2022 at 10:46 AM Post #965 of 2,015
For me the stock tubes makes no difference when it comes to the hum. Maybe the transformer is having issues with the 230-240v that comes out of the outlet here, as opposed to the 220v often specced into electrical devices for the general European market.
It really shouldn't though, as it is well within spec for the grid to run a little hot, but still.
Who knows. It's not an issue with either my TA-20 or my Little Dot Mk1+, which brings me back to the amp/transformer itself.
Anyways, it's not "bad" by any means, i can live with it just fine, so if i can't figure it out or remedy it it's not that big a deal.

You should give it a little more time, then, if the issues is still present, send back the unit.
 
Jan 25, 2022 at 10:51 AM Post #966 of 2,015
For me the stock tubes makes no difference when it comes to the hum. Maybe the transformer is having issues with the 230-240v that comes out of the outlet here, as opposed to the 220v often specced into electrical devices for the general European market.
It really shouldn't though, as it is well within spec for the grid to run a little hot, but still.
Who knows. It's not an issue with either my TA-20 or my Little Dot Mk1+, which brings me back to the amp/transformer itself.
Anyways, it's not "bad" by any means, i can live with it just fine, so if i can't figure it out or remedy it it's not that big a deal.
You should give it a little more time, then, if the issues is still present, send back the unit.
It might be outside of your return window if you wait too long. IDK how long you have to do a return vs an RMA repair from your seller.

You might consider asking Xduoo support, as they are the experts on the design and support for their hardware :)

service@xduoo.com - I'd make a short explanation that is clear and to the point, basically stating your voltage/frequency locally vs what the particular build of TA-26 is spec'd to expect, and see what they suggest as a solution to the mismatch.

I've seen people buy voltage/cycle matching hardware to solve similar problems, but I don't have any experience with those issues myself, so I don't have any specific solutions to recommend.

It is possible Xduoo could suggest a simple parts mod to match that TA-26's power setup to your own, or it might require RMA to replace the transformer to one that matches your local voltage/frequency.
 
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Jan 25, 2022 at 11:50 AM Post #967 of 2,015
Just read this on the drop forum about the DV amp; "Where I see a tube lifespan destroying 7v from the trafo instead of the normal 6.3v, someone on 230v operating gear with a 220v trafo would see something closer to 6.5v which is a bit hot but within the generally ok range for heaters. Excess heater AC voltage will cause very unpleasant mains noise, thus the nasty 60hz. x_X" https://drop.com/buy/xduoo-ta-26-tube-headphone-amplifier/talk/2828859
Another tip from forum.hifiguides.com seems to be to run the amp without the powertube for a day or three, and that solves the issue for some people; https://forum.hifiguides.com/t/xduoo-ta-26-tube-amplifier/26808/15
 
Jan 25, 2022 at 12:03 PM Post #968 of 2,015
Just read this on the drop forum about the DV amp; "Where I see a tube lifespan destroying 7v from the trafo instead of the normal 6.3v, someone on 230v operating gear with a 220v trafo would see something closer to 6.5v which is a bit hot but within the generally ok range for heaters. Excess heater AC voltage will cause very unpleasant mains noise, thus the nasty 60hz. x_X" https://drop.com/buy/xduoo-ta-26-tube-headphone-amplifier/talk/2828859
Another tip from forum.hifiguides.com seems to be to run the amp without the powertube for a day or three, and that solves the issue for some people; https://forum.hifiguides.com/t/xduoo-ta-26-tube-amplifier/26808/15

If you would live in North America or Japan, then I could understand the 60Hz concern, but not in Europe.

I would go for the second option described in your post, but it is up to you.
 
Jan 25, 2022 at 12:28 PM Post #969 of 2,015
If you would live in North America or Japan, then I could understand the 60Hz concern, but not in Europe.

I would go for the second option described in your post, but it is up to you.
Only difference is that our grid is 50hz and not 60, if i am not mistaken. The issues could still very well be similar, depending on the trafo.
However, i agree with you about the solution. I will give this some time, see if the issue goes away on its own, or try the "no powertube" option.

And i think this only bugs me because i've spent way too many years with hifi equipment which costs many times more than the TA-26, and so i am used to critical listening.
Ironically that's what i hoped to remedy with Head-Fi, and tubes in particular; to bring back the pleasure of just listening to music, in stead of analyzing every sound and note. I guess i am tainted by experience in this regard, and fixing this won't come that easy :upside_down:
Anyway; it's not a big deal, simply noticeable when there's no sound playing, and i am quite certain a lot of people wouldn't even notice.
 
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Jan 26, 2022 at 6:37 AM Post #970 of 2,015
Yup, it takes time to get our heads wrapped around the whole sound change, controls, and tube burn-in progression timing, the TA-26 is similar to the TA-20 in many ways, yet very different in so many other ways. :ksc75smile:

There are a bunch of threads here on head-fi covering the 6SN7

"The Reference 6SN7 Thread" 1st post listing has a ton of useful "6SN7 Reference" Info :)
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-1380036

Here is the first part, the quick description list of 6SN7 tubes:

6SN7GT* - First designation of the 6SN7 tube type. ‘G’ = glass body & ‘T’ = short bottle.
6SN7W* / 6SN7A* / 6180* - 10000hrs minimum life. Often labeled with JAN-CHS (equals Sylvania-made military stock) The A is generally a taller bottle with the mica above the metal band while the W has the bottom mica a bit below the metal band. But it's common to find both labelled as each other also.
6SN7GTA* - 'Upgrade' of 6SN7GT, max 450Volt Ua, 5W per system and 7.5W total. Hence tube better fulfills special requirements for TV sweep applications, like higher peak power and better impulse capabilities.
If your amp is designed around this tube, you MAY NOT be able to substitute in other 6SN7 versions due to the higher ratings for this tube – check with your manufacturer.
6SN7GTB* - Same as GTA, but with faster tube heat-up (11 seconds only).
If your amp is designed around this tube, you MAY NOT be able to substitute in other 6SN7 versions due to the higher ratings for this tube – check with your manufacturer.
6SN7GTC* - Metal envelope type 6SN7 [ie. glass envelope replaced by a metal cap]. Not well regarded. From Audio Asylum: ”South American trash can style 6SN7, 1970's vintage, pure rubbish, I wouldn't even count on it really being a 6SN7 as the South American tube makers were fairly...'liberal'...with their use of tube numbers.” –Robert H
If your amp is designed around this tube, you MAY NOT be able to substitute in other 6SN7 versions due to the higher ratings for this tube – check with your manufacturer.
6SN7GTY* - Only found on 6SN7GTs with brown ‘low-loss’ Micanol bases. RCA (US - lighter brown) and Brimar (British - darker brown) made GTYs.
6SN7WGT* - Military version of the 6SN7GT; 10,000hrs minimum life (up for debate). “IMO, while tubes (like car engines or light bulbs) may be rated for a specific lifetime, a LOT depends on the actual usage type and pattern the tube will see. E.g. Switch your amp on/off 10 times a day? Don’t expect 10,000hrs.” -Author
6SN7WGTA* - Military version of 6SN7GTA.
6SN7WGTB* - Military version of 6SN7GTB.

VT-231* - Military Part number for 6SN7. Part number used until 1945 - hence presence of this designation is usually a guarantee for real old tubes.
JAN-XXX-6SN7* - JAN= Joint Army Navy. Factories conducted stress tests (above normal 'civilian' specs) on samples of standard tubes. If they survived, the whole lot would be approved (batch approval), and marked with the prefix JAN. The samples that are actually used for the stress tests are discarded. Do remember that the stress tests conducted were on SMALL samples. “ Very interesting thing nobody talks about - especially dealers who have made a living buying old military stock that occasionally pops out of warehouses. What did the government do with tube shipments they received where their spot testing results were not acceptable? Well, in some cases, they sent them back, whereupon the manufacturer sold them into the secondary markets. A lot of those are still floating around today. OR - the government stuck the shipment into a warehouse, and in typical bureaucratic fashion, forgot about them - until some SoCal slickster approaches them with a great offer. Bingo! They are back on the market as super-duper cold war commie beating top grade mil-spec tubes - and sold to you and I, who don't realize that they probably failed the spec test. The VT or JAN designations have too often been assumed in tube folklore to be better tubes. In reality, they may be the rejects. I have occasionally found FIELD STOCK in foreign countries left behind after a war. This is the primo stuff. Not the stuff sitting in a US or UK warehouse.” –Robert H. [PHOTO HERE]
5692
- Military part number for a 'shock-proof' tube. Introduced 1948. The famous RCA "red base" is a 5692. Weight is much higher, and tube construction differs from 6SN7s. 275V maximum plate voltage & maximum 1.75W per section. [PHOTO HERE]

33S30A* / 33S30B*
- Swedish military versions of the 6SN7. Very very rare and sought after.
ECC31, 32, 33, 34 - Popular MISconception: these are NOT equivalent to 6SN7. Especially the ECC32/CV181 - close, but the 50% higher current draw will probably fry some transformers. Grid voltage, gain and transconductance are all different for these tubes. Ask your amp manufacturer first before substituting these in.
CV181/CV2821 – Alternate designations for ECC32/ECC33 respectively. The popular Mullard CV181 is NOT a drop-in replacement for 6SN7s – 50% more power draw means that the tube will probably send your transformer up in smoke.
1633/6042 - 25V/0.15A heater version of the 6SN7.
6N8S* - Old Russian designation for the 6SN7. Some Eastern European and Chinese tube factories still use this designation.
6H8C - Russian designation for a 6SN7 with a higher plate voltage. [PHOTO HERE]
13D2
- Europe-only 'special quality' version of the 6SN7GT. The tube is reinforced for additional mechanical rigidity. [PHOTO HERE]
CV1986* / CV1988*
- Both are the UK Government Common Valve designation for the 6SN7GT. [PHOTO HERE]
CV2627*
- UK Government Common Valve designation for the 6SN7W.
B65* - 6SN7 replacement made by Marconi/Osram/GEC. Extremely rare and sought after. [PHOTO HERE]
7N7
- Electrically IDENTICAL to the 6SN7 tube. This tube has a loctal-base. To fit a 6SN7 socket, a loctal-socket-to-octal-base adaptor must be fashioned. Why loctals? These tubes were created (and strongly advocated by RCA and Philco) for use in high-frequency radio applications, where the longer wires present in normal 6SN7 bases were causing problems by picking up interference. [PHOTO HERE]"

There is a ton more info in that 1st Post, and the whole thread, check it out here:


"The Reference 6SN7 Thread" 1st post listing has a ton of useful "6SN7 Reference" Info :)
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-1380036

I read up, see photo's, and post in the "6SN7 Tube Addicts" thread:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7-tube-addicts.479031/post-16772217
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7-tube-addicts.479031/post-16772903

And, for the other TA-26 tube - the 6AS7G - here is the "For 6AS7G tube rollers here ....." thread, and it's first post has a great list of 6AS7G variants!
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-5441008

"6080 - low gain @ 2- great vocals, wide sound staging

7236 - medium gain - great bass, fast and dynamic. Almost SS sounding

5998A - medium gain in straight bottle. Plate construction like 6AS7.

5998 - medium gain at 5, full-bodied sound, same current load as 6AS7

421A - same as 5998 but with matched plates/sections

6AS7G - low gain, the standard tube for most, plentiful

6AS7GA - low gain, like the standard 6AS7G in straight bottle

6520 - premium 6SA7G, sometimes with 5998 plates

6H13 - Russian 6AS7G equivalent. nothing magical with these

ECC230 - European 6AS7G equivalent. haven't seen one in person

6528 - equiv to 5998 but very high gain at 9, twice the current load. Make sure you amp can handle it

6336 - like 6528 but low gain at 2, still twice current load. Make sure you amp can handle it"

Excellent post with valuable info of tubes for the TA-26.
As a newcomer to TubeAmp world I would love to see a similar post for the TA-20 :L3000:
 
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Jan 26, 2022 at 10:43 AM Post #971 of 2,015
Excellent post with valuable info of tubes for the TA-26.
As a newcomer to TubeAmp world I would love to see a similar post for the TA-20 :L3000:
There exists such info out there - I dug it up when I started looking for 12xx7 headphone amps - before I decided on the Xduoo TA-20 and that info helped me decide on the Xduoo TA-20. It'll take me a little while to pull it together again, but I'll drop some as I find it :)

I'm sure there are a bunch of others out there with a TA-20 that would be able to contribute their favorites :)
 
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Jan 26, 2022 at 11:06 AM Post #972 of 2,015
Thinking about getting the MT-604, but my efficient headphone collection runs from 32 to 80 Ohms. So as with my LP (probably more so), gain will be an issue. There are several options and I was curious about some feedback:

1) My two existing amps can both operate as pre-amps, but I am not sure if that will fix the problem. Won't know until I try.

2) I can pull my SMSL SU-8 DAC out of the office and run two DAC's in my system to get the volume feature. Seems kind of redundant, but certainly the cheapest outside outside of pre-amping. And I do like this DAC.

3) Attenuation. Kind of in pre-amp territory. There are inline attenuators on Amazon.ca ($45.99 X 2 and get -15Db's). Garage1217 also sells attenuators (-20Db), but it is for after the amp. It is a 4-pin XLR headphone out? With this you only need one ($45.00US), but how would the sound be affected? Pre-amp? After amp? I have no idea.

I can get this amp in Canada for $225.00. I also found a tube supplier that sells 403b's in matched sets. He has several matched sets and can recommend two similar matching pairs and all four would be about $90.00 (thanks @Wiljen). I like what I hear about this amp and the cost at about $300.00 - $350.00Cdn. seems like a decent risk. It is not dirt cheap, but everything costs more in Canada. :ksc75smile:

Anxious to hear feedback from owners/potential owners. To be clear my biggest issues are that my headphones are Very efficient and I am not a loud listener.

Thanks.
...

I don't have an MT-602/MT-604, but they look great - each with their own special character, the MT-604 I find especially fascinating as I love balanced + independent volume control, most are missing right/left balance controls.

IDK if you've found these threads on head-fi:

xDuoo MT-602 Tube Class-A Headphone Amplifier - pages of reviews + comments clustered at the end of each page
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/xduoo-mt-602-tube-class-a-headphone-amplifier.25046/
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/xduoo-mt-602-tube-class-a-headphone-amplifier.25046/reviews

xDuoo MT-602 hybrid headphones amplifier review


xDuoo MT-604 Balanced Tube - 3 pages of reviews + comments clustered at the end of each page :)
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/xduoo-mt-604-balanced-tube.25147/
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/xduoo-mt-604-balanced-tube.25147/reviews

Xduoo MT-604 tube amp, My Thoughts...


As far as attenuation, any added device in the signal path will affect the sound. Some attenuation can improve the experience of adjusting the volume and it takes time to find what your hearing responds to positively, which can change over time too, it's all a journey of discovery. :)
 
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Jan 26, 2022 at 11:11 AM Post #973 of 2,015
I don't have an MT-602, but it looks great, especially as I love balanced + independent volume control, most are missing right/left balance controls.

IDK if you've found these threads on head-fi:

xDuoo MT-604 Balanced Tube - 3 pages of reviews + comments clustered at the end of each page :)
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/xduoo-mt-604-balanced-tube.25147/

There is a review that has a nice pace posted there:

Xduoo MT-604 tube amp, My Thoughts...

Yes sir. I went through every review and thread that I could find online. I ended up ordering the 602 as the price and tube rolling would be much cheaper. Also my RCA switcher has an opening and I sold my XLR switcher with my LP.

Curious to play with it and see how the high gain works out.
 
Jan 26, 2022 at 11:23 AM Post #974 of 2,015
Yes sir. I went through every review and thread that I could find online. I ended up ordering the 602 as the price and tube rolling would be much cheaper. Also my RCA switcher has an opening and I sold my XLR switcher with my LP.

Curious to play with it and see how the high gain works out.
That's great :)

I am funny how I post things, I start by posting what is found first, then when I have something I don't want to lose written up, I post it, but I continue the thought and keep adding to it. Sometimes (often), I go back and edit it again and again, catching typo's and errors myself, and adding Updates.

You read it when I hadn't finished yet, so perhaps check it out again later... still editing. I should really put an "editing" comment in the post while I am still adding to it, but in the end I'd almost have to leave that "editing" note there for a looong time :)

Congrats on the new MT-602! I hope you really do enjoy it, and find some great tube discoveries along the way! For me it has really helped the "pandemic" go by with more joy while passing the time in lockdown(s). :)
 
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Jan 26, 2022 at 12:23 PM Post #975 of 2,015
I checked out the xDuoo MT-604 its suppose to have a Class A buffer, which not sure if that matters much in this case, and is a hybrid tube balanced tube amp. The power output this thing puts out is pretty crazy I barely have to turn the dial. I tried sennheiser on tubes since everyone always talks about how much they like that, and I feel like the hd 58x pairs pretty well due to higher impedance 150 and sound signature

 

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