[ColSaulTigh]

Does anyone have any direct experience with the TA-30 vs. a Woo Audio WA7 (2nd or 3rd gen) or any other tube amps ~$1k USD? I'm contemplating picking up something else for poops and giggles and curious if anyone has any other opinions.

Headphones in my signature.

Thanks!

 

[AudioCats]

another listing. Lets see if they change the price on this one as well.

(search ebay using "quality TA-26 6n5p 6n8p")

 

[hmscott]

another listing. Lets see if they change the price on this one as well.

(search ebay using "quality TA-26 6n5p 6n8p")

Well, IDK, it's of course up to your own "things of interest", but I tend to ignore those strange unexplained "ebay phenomena"

Usually I am focusing on finding what I need at a good price, from a reliable seller - then I try to get a "read" on that eBay seller - looking at what else they sell, to see if they focus on what I am buying for long term support, or repeatability should I want to purchase something else similar, or recommend them to someone else, or if it is an oddity in their "line of work".

To have prices change dramatically, change the name of the product - manufacturer hiding, would - to me - be "unreliable" in general, with exceptions it might be worth tracking down exactly what is going on.

There is no savings in costs if the end result isn't pleasant.

In this case they have a lot of successful transactions - 1762, and no negative feedback showing recently. All good measures of a seller for me.

So, in this case, I'd simply ask them directly. Why are you selling so far below cost/MSRP?, and why are you calling an "Xduoo" Device a "Quality" Device. Then quickly exclaim you are a serious buyer with cash on hand, but you are wary of the seemingly at odds points you've raised, and would like their answers before deciding whether to purchase from them, or not.

If they sell it at the loss, and it turns out to be a real Xduoo device that works - and didn't "Fall off of a Truck" - see if you can get the serial number from them before purchase to check with Xduoo (service@xduoo.net) and ask Xduoo if that is a "legit serial number" without encumbrances (was it reported stolen?)

There might be a perfectly reasonable explanation. Like, "we can't sell for under MSRP using "Xduoo" as the name", and "we bought a pallet of TA-26's from a company in bankruptcy, and need to sell them quickly to recover working capital".

Please let us know how it works out for you

 

[hmscott]

Does anyone have any direct experience with the TA-30 vs. a Woo Audio WA7 (2nd or 3rd gen) or any other tube amps ~$1k USD? I'm contemplating picking up something else for poops and giggles and curious if anyone has any other opinions.

Headphones in my signature.

Thanks!

It is a bit of a reach, but I recalled that Sandu mentions his previous WooAudio WA6 Special Edition in his lead-in: xDuoo TA-30 Review – A Box Full of Surprises

"A lot of time passed since I listened an all tube amplifier at my place. I still have good memories of my former WooAudio WA6 Special Edition that I was upgrading monthly with better vacuum tubes and better capacitors, just to squeeze the best out of it."

Sandu also mentions details of burn-in requirements, with intermediate reads on the performance, so he knows what he is talking about. So many today poo-poo burn-in, but having lived through a time where that was a normal part of manufacturing and sales - reminding customers to not immediately reject a product due to how it sounds out of the box, give it time to "burn-in", was a widely recognized truism. Today there are devices that have components that don't "burn-in", but if any contribute to the audio path that do age over their "powered on time", they will indeed affect the resulting produced sound. Tube amps are right there smack in the middle of being affected by "burn-in", and tubes continue to age and "burn-in" to the point of "going bad". And, "Safety First", especially with devices that can kill you, several ways.

"I. Burn-In requirements & Safety Precautions

Since TA-30 is full with high-grade Nichicon and Elna electrolytic caps and with some fat metal polyester film caps, plus that oversized transformer, it was mandatory running it in for at least 100 hours. As silly as it sounds, those driver tubes and the rectifier tube also need some burn-in, it is recommended at least 48 hours before making any critical listening. Another interesting fact is that TA-30 will sound at its best only after about 15 minutes of warm-up. I put TA-30 for a 7-day burn-in connected to a laptop that was playing tunes on repeat. I only turned it off at night since it is really hot to the touch after about one hour.

At first it sounded closed-it, it was on the hotter side with brighter treble, there wasn’t any spaciousness, dynamics felt forced and really stiff. On week later, there is nothing of that left, spaciousness and transparency improved the most, bass made its appearance and finally it is sounding easy going and smooth.

Having a higher gain and an impressive power output, TA-30 is on the hotter side if you crank that volume up. When I’m listening to Audeze LCD-4 at 11 o’clock position, TA-30 is hot to the touch, so I do not recommend putting it on top of another audio equipment, in direct sunlight or in tighter spaces. It should be used only in a dry and cool place with some extra room between it and other equipment. Please check the user manual and read the “Safety Directions” for a clear explanation."

 

[ColSaulTigh]

It is a bit of a reach, but I recalled that Sandu mentions his previous WooAudio WA6 Special Edition in his lead-in: xDuoo TA-30 Review – A Box Full of Surprises

Sandu also mentions details of break-in requirements, with intermediate reads on the performance, so he knows what he is talking about. So many today poo-poo break-in, but having lived through a time where that was a normal part of manufacturing and sales - reminding customers to not immediately reject a product due to how it sounds out of the box, give it time to "break-in", was a widely recognized truism. Today there are devices that have components that don't "break-in", but if any are in the audio path that do age over time, they will indeed affect the resulting produced sound. Tube amps are right there smack in the middle of being affected by "break-in", and tubes continue to age and "break-down" to the point of "going bad". And, "Safety First", especially with devices that can kill you, several ways.

"I. Burn-In requirements & Safety Precautions

Since TA-30 is full with high-grade Nichicon and Elna electrolytic caps and with some fat metal polyester film caps, plus that oversized transformer, it was mandatory running it in for at least 100 hours. As silly as it sounds, those driver tubes and the rectifier tube also need some burn-in, it is recommended at least 48 hours before making any critical listening. Another interesting fact is that TA-30 will sound at its best only after about 15 minutes of warm-up. I put TA-30 for a 7-day burn-in connected to a laptop that was playing tunes on repeat. I only turned it off at night since it is really hot to the touch after about one hour.

At first it sounded closed-it, it was on the hotter side with brighter treble, there wasn’t any spaciousness, dynamics felt forced and really stiff. On week later, there is nothing of that left, spaciousness and transparency improved the most, bass made its appearance and finally it is sounding easy going and smooth.

Having a higher gain and an impressive power output, TA-30 is on the hotter side if you crank that volume up. When I’m listening to Audeze LCD-4 at 11 o’clock position, TA-30 is hot to the touch, so I do not recommend putting it on top of another audio equipment, in direct sunlight or in tighter spaces. It should be used only in a dry and cool place with some extra room between it and other equipment. Please check the user manual and read the “Safety Directions” for a clear explanation."

Thank you for this! I'm going to check out that review in a bit.

I've already been tube-rolling it (see my sig). Plenty of burn on time coming this weekend....

 

[hmscott]

Thank you for this! I'm going to check out that review in a bit.

I've already been tube-rolling it (see my sig). Plenty of burn on time coming this weekend....

Cool, that's great

With tubes there is no easy "A/B" testing, unless you have 2 units running - burned-in semi-equally - with tubes also through initial burn-in - with tubes you don't want to burn-in "too far", as it is a waste of their useful lives

This could be a negative for discerning "subtle" differences between tubes, but for most comparisons the difference is immediately noticeable, even after a longer than immediate power down/swap/warm-up.

The difference between 12AU7 and 12AT7 in TA-20/TA-30 is great enough that it is immediately noticeable. The 12AU7 is softer with less attack than 12AT7, at least the one's I've heard in the TA-20 - and I've heard the same reports from TA-30 owners. The last TA-30 owner I talked with was overwhelmingly positive on E80CC tubes, a longer life (10,000 hours) 12AU7 variant. I've found the E80CC sounds great in the TA-20 too. Now, I am on to E180CC - a long life (10,000 hour) 12AT7 variant.

The TA-30 outputs 50% more power (3000mW) than the TA-20 (2000mW), but the TA-30 also has an internal DAC which I would pay for and not use as I already have an external Topping D90 DAC. I have asked Xduoo if they would produce an updated TA-20 with TA-30++ power for power hungry Planars like the Hifiman HE6SE V2 and 600ohm headphones - and without a built-in DAC - then the pandemic hit, I'm not sure where Xduoo are with that product...

The TA-26 - tube only - has it's own unique advantages over the TA-20/TA-30, as I am discovering - I haven't even ordered tubes to roll yet

At least for my Beyerdynamic 600ohm headphones, Hifiman Ananda's, quite likely my Sennheiser 150ohm/300ohm headphones, the TA-26 even on stock tubes has an engaging sound... and it is "only" $319, if you are looking for a "lark" the TA-26 is an inexpensive one with the only limitation I can see is 60ohm or less headphones/IEM's...

 

[hmscott]

the 12AT7 and 12AX7 are not suitable for the TA-20 or am I wrong?
I only use 12au7 for safety.

Xduoo has confirmed that the 12AT7 and 12AX7 were ok to use in the TA-20 before I tried it myself. You could email service@xduoo.net to ask the same question so you can hear it direct from Xduoo.

December 14, 2020, relayed through Hifigo from Xduoo:
"Hi Scott, sorry for late reply.
...is it possible to substitute the 12AU7 with 12AT7 or 12AX7 : Xdoo reply yes no problem."

I also confirmed with Xduoo that the E80CC is compatible before I plugged in a pair of E80CC's. I was concerned because the E80CC, even though it is a 12AU7 variant the E80CC draws 2x the heater current of the 12AU7, and Xduoo said:

August 4, 2021, relayed through Hifigo from Xduoo:
"Hello, Scott,
Sorry for late reply. E80CC ( 6085 ) is ok to match with TA20 and TA30 xduoo replied, and they thank you for your questions and testing.
If you have any futher questions, pls let me know.
Best regard ~ "

The TA-20 runs warmer with the E80CC's, but not as hot as the stock tubes on the TA-26, I guess I should post what the temps are on the TA-26:

Here is another Tube design that accommodates a 12AU7, 12AT7, and 12AX7, and others...

"This design decision permits the circuit to operate many low, medium, and high gain tubes that are available today from current manufacturers. NOS tubes are also available and will provide the user with even more choices. You can use 12-AU7, 12-AT7, 12-AX7, and many more."
"The Stealth will enable you to adjust your gain (volume) to your liking depending on the strength of your input signal. This will eliminate the need for a gain switch especially when an attenuator is being used. Thus the flexibility and strength of this amp will make you appreciate the variety and number of tubes that it can accommodate to tailor the sound to your liking."
http://www.raysamuelsaudio.com/products/stealth.html
Stealth Pre-Amp/Headphone Amp $2,495.00

The Stealth is a much different headphone amp + pre-amp, and much more costly, it is impressive how Xduoo accomplished a similar wide compatibility with tubes for such a low price of $399 with the TA-20.

 

[cirodts]

what do the 12at7 and 12ax7 have better than the 12au7 on the TA-20?

 

[PetFju]

what do the 12at7 and 12ax7 have better than the 12au7 on the TA-20?

Like @hmscott mentioned above; the 12AT7 seems to offer a little more of everything so to speak, except "tube-muddiness".
Only thing to keep in mind is that it is also more "immediate" and dynamic (in my opinion) in the TA-20, and as such as such can (to some people) make the amp sound more like solid state.
My experience is that it opens up the soudstage a little, gives a little morer "oomph" where needed, and is just "better", as subjective as that may be. YMMV as far as type and quality of tube goes though, as i find the tung-sol 12AU7 black glass to be quite similar in sound to f.ex. the 12AT7 mullard that i have, except it sounds a little more "rounded", as in less etched highs (for better or worse).

 

[hmscott]

what do the 12at7 and 12ax7 have better than the 12au7 on the TA-20?

The subjective increase in impact, soundstage, and overall enjoyment. The same as finding better sounding (to you) 12AU7's, the 12AT7 opens up a wider range of options, and again I wouldn't suggest jumping in all at once, take your time with exploring the 12AU7 and 12AU7 variants first, to get a good ear to what to listen for as far as differences, before jumping off into 12AT7, E80CC, E180CC, 12BH7, etc.

That path provided me with months of listening enjoyment - getting to know the 12AU7 options, hunting them down, finding the best measuring and best priced 12AU7's, and then when I was ready - I felt I could do justice to a whole new target when I found one, I moved to 12AT7's, and on to E80CC, 6060, and recently E180CC's.

And, for me the 12AX7 is a bit too *HOT* sounding in the TA-20, perhaps get a nice RCA 12AX7 Black Plate to try and see what I am talking about, but I wouldn't start off ordering a bunch of 12AX7s to start, I'd sample a single 12AX7 pair first.

Like @hmscott mentioned above; the 12AT7 seems to offer a little more of everything so to speak, except "tube-muddiness".
Only thing to keep in mind is that it is also more "immediate" and dynamic (in my opinion) in the TA-20, and as such as such can (to some people) make the amp sound more like solid state.
My experience is that it opens up the soudstage a little, gives a little morer "oomph" where needed, and is just "better", as subjective as that may be. YMMV as far as type and quality of tube goes though, as i find the tung-sol 12AU7 black glass to be quite similar in sound to f.ex. the 12AT7 mullard that i have, except it sounds a little more "rounded", as in less etched highs (for better or worse).

Yup, that is also what I have found. The dynamic impact of the 12AT7 is only exceeded by the E80CC (12AU7 variant) and now that I've experienced the E180CC (12AT7 variant) it has the characteristics of the 12AT7 in the TA-20, in an upgraded longer life tube design - 10,000 hours, and the E180CC delivers to my ears the best so far, again.

In comparison to the TA-26, even the most tubey sounding 12AT7/E180CC/6060/E80CC tubes in the TA-20 pale in comparison to the TA-26 stock tubes for tubiness.

But, the TA-20 with the 12AT7/E180CC/6060/E80CC tubes sound amazingly detailed - SS- like - in comparison to the broader deeper soundstage and tubiness of the TA-26.

I think both the TA-20 and TA-26 are making a wide dual path into the audio soundscape, both have different strengths and both best serve different headphone impedances best, I'm enjoying A/B'ing both side by side.

 

[hmscott]

Happy New Year!!

I love these old Tube movies, this one is from 1940, years gone by, it is fun to look back at yesteryear when approaching a new year...and to see our NOS Tubes when they were brand new!

AT&T Archives: A Modern Aladdin's Lamp, about vacuum tubes,1940


Vacuum Tubes/Valves by Mullard ~Manufacture for Audio TV Radio


Vintage Technology: Vacuum Tubes 1943 Training Film (The TRIODE) Signal Corps Army Air Force Radio
​

 

[PetFju]

Happy New Year!!

Happy new year, to everyone here

 

[cirodts]

The subjective increase in impact, soundstage, and overall enjoyment. The same as finding better sounding (to you) 12AU7's, the 12AT7 opens up a wider range of options, and again I wouldn't suggest jumping in all at once, take your time with exploring the 12AU7 and 12AU7 variants first, to get a good ear to what to listen for as far as differences, before jumping off into 12AT7, E80CC, E180CC, 12BH7, etc.

That path provided me with months of listening enjoyment - getting to know the 12AU7 options, hunting them down, finding the best measuring and best priced 12AU7's, and then when I was ready - I felt I could do justice to a whole new target when I found one, I moved to 12AT7's, and on to E80CC, 6060, and recently E180CC's.

And, for me the 12AX7 is a bit too *HOT* sounding in the TA-20, perhaps get a nice RCA 12AX7 Black Plate to try and see what I am talking about, but I wouldn't start off ordering a bunch of 12AX7s to start, I'd sample a single 12AX7 pair first.

Yup, that is also what I have found. The dynamic impact of the 12AT7 is only exceeded by the E80CC (12AU7 variant) and now that I've experienced the E180CC (12AT7 variant) it has the characteristics of the 12AT7 in the TA-20, in an upgraded longer life tube design - 10,000 hours, and the E180CC delivers to my ears the best so far, again.

In comparison to the TA-26, even the most tubey sounding 12AT7/E180CC/6060/E80CC tubes in the TA-20 pale in comparison to the TA-26 stock tubes for tubiness.

But, the TA-20 with the 12AT7/E180CC/6060/E80CC tubes sound amazingly detailed - SS- like - in comparison to the broader deeper soundstage and tubiness of the TA-26.

I think both the TA-20 and TA-26 are making a wide dual path into the audio soundscape, both have different strengths and both best serve different headphone impedances best, I'm enjoying A/B'ing both side by side.

between ta-20 and ta-26 which do you feel has the most impact for a rock metal listening?

 

[hmscott]

between ta-20 and ta-26 which do you feel has the most impact for a rock metal listening?

It is going to depend the most on what impedance headphones you have. If you have 60 ohm and under headphones then the TA-26 isn't a good match, literally

The TA-20 does great on up through 300 ohm, and adequately at 600 ohm, but the TA-26 has a bit of an edge at 600 ohm, for any genre.

I don't listen to metal though, so I cannot give you any specific comparisons... perhaps someone else that is a fan of metal can help you?
PS @cirodts - song/album links, youtube/Tidal or the full name of the song/title/band, I will compare them on the TA-20 and TA-26

 

[hmscott]

Well, I went and did it, I ordered some new tubes for the TA-26:

I ordered some Russian 6ASG compatible tubes, those are gonna take 4-6 weeks to get here - he is on vacation till the 15th and then he said it takes 3 weeks to transit, and I listed them here in a For 6AS7G tube rollers here ..... group post where I researched them. These are the large Stepped Glass tube envelope tube in the back of the TA-26

Then I bought a few 6SN7's. For 2 of them the dealer was kind enough to split 1 tube off of his Quad/Pair Matched Tube Listings!, what an accomodating dealer...

6SN7 GTA SYLVANIA NOS SAME DATE CODE TALL GLASS
TUBE1) 3000/3000 uSIEMENS ; 7.6/7.6 ma
https://www.ebay.com/itm/143395297531

SYLVANIA VT 231 6SN7 GT NOS Well-Balanced Gm ; Ip
TUBE1) 94/95 uSIEMENS ; 10.3/10.4 ma
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133347142184

And, the same goes for another 6NS7 split from a pair:

Sylvania VT-231 6SN7GT ECC33 Mil-Spec Tubes - Matched Pair, Tested, NOS, Bad Boy
These tubes have black Bad Boy T plates and foil getters. Date codes are from the late 1940's. The tubes test with readings of 110/110...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255288806061

When I ask for a specific tube - with it's identifying measurements - I only purchase from dealers that list the full measurements - I ask for tubes "like this" (if I remember) instead of those specific tubes, but these dealers were very helpful right off, I'd not purchased from either of them before.

I'm used to purchasing pairs of tubes for the TA-20, this is new, needing to find only 1 of each tube type when everyone else seems to want pairs or quads of these tubes