[Edoardo]

I would take a look at the Lake People catalogue, wire-with-gain philosophy
 
they also have an online shop 
 
http://www.lake-people.de

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

I would take a look at the Lake People catalogue, wire-with-gain philosophy
 
they also have an online shop 
 
http://www.lake-people.de

Thanks for the link!  The G100 looks capable, what's the price?

 

[khaos974]

The probelm is that manufacturer don't often provide the full specs of their products, but I would say that most pro headphone amps would fit the bill as far as specs are concerned especially since they are the only ones to provide somehow complete specs:
 
From the manual of the SPL Auditor:
minimum phase issue (check the graph)
perfect FR (-3 dB@200 kHz, again check the graph0
0.001% distrortion @1kHz
-84dB channel separation
the only issue is the 9 ohm output for the headphone out, the dampening factor would be too low for low impedance cans?
 
The Lake People/Violectric amps have pretty good specs to, as do the Gilmore GS-1/X, or the Lehman amp.
 
Quote:

There are so many amps on the market... and while synergy is indeed an important aspect from a "matching of sound signatures" perspective, there must be an option for avoiding amp coloration altogether.  I want an amp that: 
 
- Will provide all the current and voltage I need
- Will do so into any varying load
- Have lightning fast transient response
- Reproduce a nearly perfect square wave at all frequencies
- Has a power supply which will provide everything the amp wants, lickety split
- Has minimal phase issues
- Minimizes distortion
- Has no rolloff or other frequency response anomalies
- Maximizes channel separation
- plus anything else I may have missed
 
 
surely after 100 years of research, something like this can be built... at the very least, there must be an amp which is closer to this ideal than any other.  the question is, where is it? 
 
 
 
 
if anyone can point me in the right direction, i will send you a pizza roll

 

[El_Doug]

"Best in what category"?  Perhaps you missed the first post, but in this case I using the word best to mean the amp that most meets the bulk of the qualities I listed above. 
 
I can appreciate elegant simplicity as much as the next fellow.  However I have a hard time swallowing that elegant simplicity will lead to the ultimate in linearity, lowest distortion, etc. etc.  If it is indeed possible to reach these goals with so few parts, then again I ask, why doesnt every amp ditch 90% of the additional components? 
 
Of course if one can match the same performance benchmarks with fewer parts, I applaud them - theirs is a better design.  No one in their right mind would argue that fewer parts is inherently inferior.  However the point of this thread was to discuss and isolate those amps which, above and beyond the rest, match those descriptors in the original post, and not to argue the merits of overdesign. 
 
Quote:

I'm not saying this amp is the best of the best...  There are a lot of dependencies here to consider.  Best in what category?
There is certainly merit in elegant simplicity.  Is it the only figure of merit?  No.
 
The thing to do is to listen to this or any other amp and decide for yourself if it has the merit you're looking for.  Straight wire with gain?  I think it hits pretty close to the mark.
 

Quote:

Are you saying the fewer the components used, the poorer quality it is?  In my experience, the lower the parts count one can use to achieve one's design goals, the better.  Higher reliability, greater mean time between failure, etc.
 
Listen, then judge.

 

[El_Doug]

Indeed, I am sure there is a good reason that most amp manufacturers do not release measurements   Thanks for the link to the auditor specs! 
 
Has anyone taken the time to measure these amps into more realistic loads?  As much as I want to trust these measurements (and I do, for the most part), they are often measured into a resistor, and not anything with varying impedance. 
 
Quote:

The probelm is that manufacturer don't often provide the full specs of their products, but I would say that most pro headphone amps would fit the bill as far as specs are concerned especially since they are the only ones to provide somehow complete specs:
 
From the manual of the SPL Auditor:
minimum phase issue (check the graph)
perfect FR (-3 dB@200 kHz, again check the graph0
0.001% distrortion @1kHz
-84dB channel separation
the only issue is the 9 ohm output for the headphone out, the dampening factor would be too low for low impedance cans?
 
The Lake People/Violectric amps have pretty good specs to, as do the Gilmore GS-1/X, or the Lehman amp.
 


 

 

[khaos974]

I think Dreadhead measured the SPL Phonitor when he test it, and that Skylab measured the Meier Concerto when he reviewed it, other than those two, I don't know any head-fi reviewer who do measures for their review.
As far as providing measures for realistic loads, I doubt we will see any in the future considering that defining a "typical" load is somewhat difficult, not to mention that even it the amp performed relatively well, it only convince a handful of buyers since their competitor "might" perform better - as they didn't release that measure, who knows?
 
Or maybe even a well engineered amp measures are not that flattering when it comes to realistic loads (which I somewhat doubt considering that speaker amps can measure pretty well with real speakers)? And maybe they have another reason not to release those measures?

That said, I would be extremely happy if I found an amp that matched those criteria.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Indeed, I am sure there is a good reason that most amp manufacturers do not release measurements   Thanks for the link to the auditor specs! 
 
Has anyone taken the time to measure these amps into more realistic loads?  As much as I want to trust these measurements (and I do, for the most part), they are often measured into a resistor, and not anything with varying impedance. 

The Asgard performs as expected with the LCD-2.  There is more than enough power.  The sound is clean, precise, neutral, and sweet.  The LCD-2 is controlled with great authority.  You owe me a pizza roll!  

 

[nikongod]

Could you define the things you are looking for more precisely? No? 
 
Why ask then? This thread is going to be a dumping ground on amps that dont meet undefined and probably unrealistic criteria if they are ever defined. Congratulations for diluting head-fi. the amp-scape is currently a little thin, as many would agree: do we need more reasons for someone NOT to pursue their dream and build an amp?
 
Why not define the compromises you are willing to make, and go from there? Perhaps someone could help you find an amp that suits your tastes if you did that. Surely you must know that wire with gain as most people define it does not exist. Every time you improve one aspect of an amplifier, another suffers. You improve that, and something else is compromised. Its quite the vicious circle. You can easily end it by admitting to yourself what you are willing to compromise.
 
On a note at least as serious as the rest of this thread, I have built an amp that is by definition wire with gain. 
 
I present to you the least-espressivo portable headphone amplifier:
 

 
As you can see it is a pair of transformers. There is nothing in the signal path except for a couple switches, a few bits of random wire, and the wire in the transformers. 
 
Bandwidth on the low end of the bass is limited and the distortion at the low end is nothing to write home about. OTOH, the noise is exceptionally low, as is the output impedance. Both of which are critical in the application I put it together for. It is also wonderfully efficient, having run for several months without a battery.
 
Edited:
For fun I measured the transformers. I put these together about a year and a half ago, but never measured them. heh. 
Into a 30 ohm resistor, 1.5v p-p input, 150mvp-p output. This will drive Ety ER4s to more than comfortable levels.
Bandwidth was about 30-100Khz -3db.
Phase shift was a few degrees from 15K-40Khz. I actually got tired of trying to see it.
10Khz squares looked quite nice, with slight sloping of the edges but NO overshoot. Compromises are what keep us sane.
 
Regarding the low-end extension of the transformers (or what some would call lack thereof): They start looking ugly around 25hz, and look positively ugly at around 15hz. Loosing the last half of an octave dosnt bother me.

 

[chesebert]

There is no such amp.
 
You can now safely quit head-fi because your dream/wish will never come true.
 
You can only approximate nature, never recreate it; to do so, you would need infinite everything (e.g. infinite bandwidth, slew rate, rise time, drive, etc)
 
Even if you really just have wire, you still won't have perfection - guess what, wire is just another passive circuit with its own RCL properties. 
 
This thread is a waste of time.

 

[El_Doug]

This more likely is a sign of my lack of understanding of amps, as opposed to any desire to "dilute head-fi."  The implication makes me sad inside  
 
Since you describe a cycle of sacrificing certain aspects for improvements of others, perhaps you could elaborate on this?  THIS is what I'd really like to learn, and a good direction for this thread to take.  Though I wanted to see a "perfect" amp, an understanding of why this is an impossible request is equally as beneficial to the knowledge of anyone who would come across this thread, wouldnt you agree? 
 
Quote:

Could you define the things you are looking for more precisely? No? 
 
Why ask then? This thread is going to be a dumping ground on amps that dont meet undefined and probably unrealistic criteria if they are ever defined. Congratulations for diluting head-fi. the amp-scape is currently a little thin, as many would agree: do we need more reasons for someone NOT to pursue their dream and build an amp?

 

[El_Doug]

Why would I want to quit head-fi, just because I cannot achieve some theoretical "perfection"?  Am I not allowed to enjoy what is available, while at the same time utilize a discussion thread to learn about other options that I have never experienced or considered? 
 
Someone musta woken up on the wrong side of the bed
 
Quote:

There is no such amp.
 
You can now safely quit head-fi because your dream/wish will never come true.
 
You can only approximate nature, never recreate it; to do so, you would need infinite everything (e.g. infinite bandwidth, slew rate, rise time, drive, etc)
 
Even if you really just have wire, you still won't have perfection - guess what, wire is just another passive circuit with its own RCL properties. 
 
This thread is a waste of time.

 

[kwkarth]

Hey man, where's my pizza roll?

 

[Uncle Erik]

I wonder if the enjoyment of an ideal amp would be any greater than one with flaws. I know that DHTs don't give an "ideal" response, but that doesn't stop me from loving them. Compromise is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[El_Doug]

I was hoping for an exploration of what makes an amp measure well, what kinds of sacrifices must be made, what kind of options exist that do measure excellently, and what can still be expected to come.  Instead, too many people are looking to dissect the intent of this thread, as if it were an assault on all amps in existence, as well as some kind of statement that poorly measuring amps are somehow inferior.  Others are simply touting their preferences without explaining the topology, or giving measurements. 
 
To say I am disappointed would be an understatement
 
 
Quote:

I wonder if the enjoyment of an ideal amp would be any greater than one with flaws. I know that DHTs don't give an "ideal" response, but that doesn't stop me from loving them. Compromise is not necessarily a bad thing.

 
I enjoy the Extreme very much - it surely does not measure well.  same can be said for my WES.  i too enjoy 2A3 and 300B amps, in DHT configurations.  I do wonder if an ideal amp would sound better or not - more likely than not, it will come down to the same feeling of synergy with cans as poorly measuring amps. 

 
Quote:

Hey man, where's my pizza roll?

 
 
Post office is closed on Sundays at 2am   PM me your address, and your preference for pepperoni or cheese

 

[Ypoknons]

Deconstruction from the top down, rather than building from the bottom up eh?