Dec 5, 2010 at 9:27 PM Post #46 of 85
For one you are buying/listening to "basshead" headphones it seems? I just got the Sony XB500 tonight, and they are great for me, but I also listen to primarily electronic and hip hop.  They are NO GOOD for anything not hip hop/electronic it appears.  Maybe look into more well rounded headphones and not the basshead heaphones.  Real basshead headphones (ones that have actual bass impact!!) tend to have more bass at the expense of everything else, and I really believe that from listening experience.  I'm not even an audiophile, just a guy that likes tons of bass impact and highs that won't hurt my ears.  But if I didn't listen to dance music and demand insane amounts of bass impact, I would not use these headphones.
 
Maybe look into the Equation Audio RP-21 or RP-22x?
 
Dec 6, 2010 at 1:45 AM Post #47 of 85


Quote:
Hi-resolution DAC/Amps will greatly enhance what you listen to. The CEntrance DACport, the HRT Music Streamer II +, NuForce U-Dac 2, these are possibilities...but listen to them first if you can.



Thank you for your advice. If I am lucky enough I can listen listen to it.
 
Dec 6, 2010 at 1:48 AM Post #48 of 85


Quote:
For one you are buying/listening to "basshead" headphones it seems? I just got the Sony XB500 tonight, and they are great for me, but I also listen to primarily electronic and hip hop.  They are NO GOOD for anything not hip hop/electronic it appears.  Maybe look into more well rounded headphones and not the basshead heaphones.  Real basshead headphones (ones that have actual bass impact!!) tend to have more bass at the expense of everything else, and I really believe that from listening experience.  I'm not even an audiophile, just a guy that likes tons of bass impact and highs that won't hurt my ears.  But if I didn't listen to dance music and demand insane amounts of bass impact, I would not use these headphones.
 
Maybe look into the Equation Audio RP-21 or RP-22x?


well, the AD700s are not exactly bass head.
What I do need most is accuracy, transparency and detail.
for example in the prelude to "Rigoletto" by Verdi, all I hear is scratch and noise in the climactic parts (not clean, intense, sound).

 
 
Dec 6, 2010 at 1:51 AM Post #49 of 85


Quote:
Quote:
For one you are buying/listening to "basshead" headphones it seems? I just got the Sony XB500 tonight, and they are great for me, but I also listen to primarily electronic and hip hop.  They are NO GOOD for anything not hip hop/electronic it appears.  Maybe look into more well rounded headphones and not the basshead heaphones.  Real basshead headphones (ones that have actual bass impact!!) tend to have more bass at the expense of everything else, and I really believe that from listening experience.  I'm not even an audiophile, just a guy that likes tons of bass impact and highs that won't hurt my ears.  But if I didn't listen to dance music and demand insane amounts of bass impact, I would not use these headphones.
 
Maybe look into the Equation Audio RP-21 or RP-22x?


well, the AD700s are not exactly bass head.
What I do need most is accuracy, transparency and detail.
for example in the prelude to "Rigoletto" by Verdi, all I hear is scratch and noise in the climactic parts (not clean, intense, sound).

 

 
You should look into Alessandro MS-1's perhaps?  I had them and returned them b/c there wasn't enough bass for me, but those are real audiophile headphones, and I think they could definately be described as highly detailed and accurate, they seemed very fast if that makes any sense.
 
 
Dec 6, 2010 at 6:57 AM Post #51 of 85


Quote:
also I was almost offended to find out that even the Shure SRH 840  can barely outperform my 12$ sony MDRJ10L earphones and my dell laptop.  

IMHO, if you can't tell the difference between a Shure SRH840 and $12 sony earphones, I think you'd be better off buying stock ipod earbuds and not caring about the sound quality. Just my two cents.
 
Dec 6, 2010 at 8:17 AM Post #52 of 85
Quote:
also I was almost offended to find out that even the Shure SRH 840  can barely outperform my 12$ sony MDRJ10L earphones and my dell laptop.  

IMHO, if you can't tell the difference between a Shure SRH840 and $12 sony earphones, I think you'd be better off buying stock ipod earbuds and not caring about the sound quality. Just my two cents.


Again, I think what the OP was saying was that he wasn't "wowed" by the difference. He states he is experienced in music but also that he is inexperienced in audiophilia (is there such a word?). That has meant not only that his expectations might have been unrealistic (serious competition to the sound of a full symphony orchestra) but that he might not be atuned to identify what extra one headphone brings to the table compared to another. Someone used only to live performance may not immediately appreciate the achievement of a particular headphone to convey "soundstage" say, since that is something they rather take for granted.
Looking at it from another view, perhaps it is a good thing he wasn't "wowed". We all know from experience that a piece of music or performance that is immediately impressive is often not the one that bears up to repeated listening.

Of course there is something to be said for not getting too hung up on hi-fi if most of your favourite opera recordings are fifty-plus years old...
 
Dec 6, 2010 at 8:36 AM Post #53 of 85


Quote:
 
Quote:
IMHO, if you can't tell the difference between a Shure SRH840 and $12 sony earphones, I think you'd be better off buying stock ipod earbuds and not caring about the sound quality. Just my two cents.



Again, I think what the OP was saying was that he wasn't "wowed" by the difference. He states he is experienced in music but also that he is inexperienced in audiophilia (is there such a word?). That has meant not only that his expectations might have been unrealistic (serious competition to the sound of a full symphony orchestra) but that he might not be atuned to identify what extra one headphone brings to the table compared to another. Someone used only to live performance may not immediately appreciate the achievement of a particular headphone to convey "soundstage" say, since that is something they rather take for granted.Looking at it from another view, perhaps it is a good thing he wasn't "wowed". We all know from experience that a piece of music or performance that is immediately impressive is often not the one that bears up to repeated listening.Of course there is something to be said for not getting too hung up on hi-fi if most of your favourite opera recordings are fifty-plus years old...


If you put it that way, then of course he/she can't be wowed by any headphone at all, since OP is used to live, acoustic performances. No matter how good, a pair of headphones can't compete against the reality of a live orchestra. It's like comparing watching a DVD to a movie at the cinema.
 
Dec 6, 2010 at 8:45 AM Post #54 of 85
I have a few suggestions for you. They're just general guidelines, and some of them have already been mentioned beforehand.
 
First of all, most of the cans UE has suggested have one thing in common, and that's that they're mostly open designs. It sounds to me like you need open cans, as they are generally more coherent and have a wider soundstage presentation than closed headphones. This is because closed backs introduce a series of internal reflections that need to be designed around; they also tend to close the listener in. There are exceptions to every rule, of course. The DENON Dx000 series is especially highly regarded in that it reportedly gets around the limitations of its design and sounds very open, in addition to producing strong, well-extended bass. But, for the most part, open cans tend to sound better than closed ones.
 
Further to this, I think you need neutral headphones. There are some cans (e.g. Grado) that have a highly colored, subjectively pleasing tonal presentation. However, somebody with your experience will likely demand neutrality and tonal accuracy. Unfortunately, there is no official standard for neutrality. Unlike with speakers, a ruler flat response seldom exists with headphones and might not even be ideal. Some headphones (beyerdynamic DT880, Sony MDR-SA5000, AKG K701/2) are considered to be at the bright end of neutral; the Sennheiser HD650 (along with most high end Sennheisers) would be toward the warmer, darker side of neutral. Finally, some of the earlier AKG models (K501, K601) are (allegedly, I couldn't say from experience) more focused on the midrange, with more subdued bass and treble. All of these are different interpretations of "neutral", and while none has glaring coloration (subject to argument for just about every specific example one could mention), all have a sort of tonal tint or cast. The trick is to find which category pleases you the most, and to try different models that fall within that category.
 
I would also suggest, as have others, that you make some concessions to the headphone presentation. It will never project the same effect as a live performance or a good set of speakers because stereo recordings were never meant to be listened to on headphones. There is such a thing as the head-related transfer function (HRTF)*. You (and most everybody else) have two ears. When you hear a sound, you're hearing it through both ears, but each ear gathers a slightly different version of the sound. If a sound comes from your right, then your right ear will pick it up before the left. Additionally, the shape and contour of your own head will delay and alter the sound as it reaches your left ear, and your brain uses the discrepancy between the right and left ear impulses to determine where the sound originates from. Stereo sound works in a similar manner--your left ear hears the sound from both the left and right speakers, and the same with your right ear. Where the sound is identical in both channels it is perceived as perfectly centered. Where it is louder in one channel than the other it is perceived as biased in the direction of that channel.
 
Headphones, however, are unnatural in that what the left ear hears the right ear does not. The lack of an HRTF effect messes with the brain's ability to localize sounds, resulting in a weird (and, in nature, impossible) "in-the-head" presentation. Some headphones can be perceived to project some of their sound outside the head, but no headphone will ever escape the limitations of its presentation. Something called crossfeed can help--this is a process whereby specially designed hardware or software mixes a time-delayed, low amplitude version of each channel's signal into the opposite channel in an effort to simulate HRTF. Some users notice a significant improvement, while others notice little or no improvement. Several manufacturers, including HeadRoom and Meier, offer headphone amps with crossfeed circuits. There are also software plugins available on the Internet.
 
My final suggestion is to find a place with a good return policy--perhaps someplace online with a decent suggestion--and order several different models. Note what you like and dislike about each, and cross-reference against what people on Head-Fi have to say about each particular model. You may just find somebody who felt the same way as you about headphone X and found that headphone Y was the perfect antidote.
 
*To those reading, if I've utterly butchered this explanation, please feel free to correct me where I've gone wrong. I want the OP to get the right information.
 
Dec 6, 2010 at 9:12 AM Post #55 of 85
Quote:
I have a few suggestions for you. They're just general guidelines, and some of them have already been mentioned beforehand.
 
First of all, most of the cans UE has suggested have one thing in common, and that's that they're mostly open designs. It sounds to me like you need open cans, as they are generally more coherent and have a wider soundstage presentation than closed headphones. This is because closed backs introduce a series of internal reflections that need to be designed around; they also tend to close the listener in. There are exceptions to every rule, of course. The DENON Dx000 series is especially highly regarded in that it reportedly gets around the limitations of its design and sounds very open, in addition to producing strong, well-extended bass. But, for the most part, open cans tend to sound better than closed ones.
 
Further to this, I think you need neutral headphones. There are some cans (e.g. Grado) that have a highly colored, subjectively pleasing tonal presentation. However, somebody with your experience will likely demand neutrality and tonal accuracy. Unfortunately, there is no official standard for neutrality. Unlike with speakers, a ruler flat response seldom exists with headphones and might not even be ideal. Some headphones (beyerdynamic DT880, Sony MDR-SA5000, AKG K701/2) are considered to be at the bright end of neutral; the Sennheiser HD650 (along with most high end Sennheisers) would be toward the warmer, darker side of neutral. Finally, some of the earlier AKG models (K501, K601) are (allegedly, I couldn't say from experience) more focused on the midrange, with more subdued bass and treble. All of these are different interpretations of "neutral", and while none has glaring coloration (subject to argument for just about every specific example one could mention), all have a sort of tonal tint or cast. The trick is to find which category pleases you the most, and to try different models that fall within that category.
 
I would also suggest, as have others, that you make some concessions to the headphone presentation. It will never project the same effect as a live performance or a good set of speakers because stereo recordings were never meant to be listened to on headphones. There is such a thing as the head-related transfer function (HRTF)*. You (and most everybody else) have two ears. When you hear a sound, you're hearing it through both ears, but each ear gathers a slightly different version of the sound. If a sound comes from your right, then your right ear will pick it up before the left. Additionally, the shape and contour of your own head will delay and alter the sound as it reaches your left ear, and your brain uses the discrepancy between the right and left ear impulses to determine where the sound originates from. Stereo sound works in a similar manner--your left ear hears the sound from both the left and right speakers, and the same with your right ear. Where the sound is identical in both channels it is perceived as perfectly centered. Where it is louder in one channel than the other it is perceived as biased in the direction of that channel.
 
Headphones, however, are unnatural in that what the left ear hears the right ear does not. The lack of an HRTF effect messes with the brain's ability to localize sounds, resulting in a weird (and, in nature, impossible) "in-the-head" presentation. Some headphones can be perceived to project some of their sound outside the head, but no headphone will ever escape the limitations of its presentation. Something called crossfeed can help--this is a process whereby specially designed hardware or software mixes a time-delayed, low amplitude version of each channel's signal into the opposite channel in an effort to simulate HRTF. Some users notice a significant improvement, while others notice little or no improvement. Several manufacturers, including HeadRoom and Meier, offer headphone amps with crossfeed circuits. There are also software plugins available on the Internet.
 
My final suggestion is to find a place with a good return policy--perhaps someplace online with a decent suggestion--and order several different models. Note what you like and dislike about each, and cross-reference against what people on Head-Fi have to say about each particular model. You may just find somebody who felt the same way as you about headphone X and found that headphone Y was the perfect antidote.
 
*To those reading, if I've utterly butchered this explanation, please feel free to correct me where I've gone wrong. I want the OP to get the right information.



Thank you very much it makes a lot of sense. :)  now I know what crossfeed means. I knew that the sense of 3D sound and sounstage comes from the difference in intensity of sound in each ear.(the way binaural recordings work, and they give you a pretty good experience of natural sound).
a lot of online places have satisfaction guarantee return policies but for limited time, and probably by the time the cans are shipped to me and I listen to them and I ship them back the time is probably over.(let alone if I want to do a few hours of burn in before I judge them).
your help is much appreciated I learned a lot.
smily_headphones1.gif

 
Dec 6, 2010 at 9:16 AM Post #56 of 85
 

 
Quote:
 
Quote:
IMHO, if you can't tell the difference between a Shure SRH840 and $12 sony earphones, I think you'd be better off buying stock ipod earbuds and not caring about the sound quality. Just my two cents.



Again, I think what the OP was saying was that he wasn't "wowed" by the difference. He states he is experienced in music but also that he is inexperienced in audiophilia (is there such a word?). That has meant not only that his expectations might have been unrealistic (serious competition to the sound of a full symphony orchestra) but that he might not be atuned to identify what extra one headphone brings to the table compared to another. Someone used only to live performance may not immediately appreciate the achievement of a particular headphone to convey "soundstage" say, since that is something they rather take for granted.Looking at it from another view, perhaps it is a good thing he wasn't "wowed". We all know from experience that a piece of music or performance that is immediately impressive is often not the one that bears up to repeated listening.Of course there is something to be said for not getting too hung up on hi-fi if most of your favourite opera recordings are fifty-plus years old...

 Thank you! you got the point there. since I am so inexperienced and new to audiophilia, I did not know what to expect.
but about the opera (and classical) recordings, they are "composed" a long time ago, I have new productions. (new recordings)
and trust me if I finally find a setup that is good enough, I will buy 24 bit 96KHz recordings from HDtracks.
 
 

 
 
Dec 6, 2010 at 9:28 AM Post #58 of 85
Great explanation, Argyris. 
 
To the OP, definitely look around for a good DAC, preferably in the for sale section of the forum.
 
Dec 6, 2010 at 9:32 AM Post #59 of 85
Dec 6, 2010 at 9:34 AM Post #60 of 85


Quote:
Great explanation, Argyris. 
 
To the OP, definitely look around for a good DAC, preferably in the for sale section of the forum.


Thanks, but I would appreciate if you can elaborate on "good" DAC. is Udac2 HP good enough?
 how about Audinst HUD-MX1?
 

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