[moonboy403]

I cannot believe that you're calling HD600, HD650, HD800, and K701 "very similar".

I suppose you've never heard them in person.

Moreover, looking at the FR of the K701 and A700, you would tell me that the K701 is the more "bass heavy" of the two. However, that's just not the case, the A700 would be considered a bass monster next to the K701. What does this tell you?

 

[Uncle Erik]

Boomana touches on this, but I want to point out that a headphone's performance varies greatly by the equipment it's plugged into.

If you look at the output impedance curves of various amplifiers (especially tubed amps) and compare them against the impedance curves of headphones, you'll see much of the reason why headphones sound different from different amps.

Though you can run a battery of tests with an oscilloscope (and I do have one), but you're not going to get the entire picture unless you run them with your own gear. Dragging you entire rig, with test gear, in for a demo is hardly practical.

Another reason to compare headphones with music is just for the fun of it. Sure, that's entirely subjective. However, the element of mystery and discovery is a huge part of what makes this hobby fun. I love going to a meet, trying gear I'm unfamiliar with and seeing how it goes. That's led to several happy discoveries and purchases.

While it might not satisfy the deepest scientific inquiry, what really puts the joy into this pursuit is listening and socializing.

 

[FYJX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif you need to consider two things 1) is that statement really true? are you sure that science can't predict what sounds good? the hd800, hd650, k701, and every other popular headphone are all scientifically superior. this can be verified by looking at their harmonic distortion and 50/500/5000 hz frequency responses

yes it is true. The HD800 is not necessarily "superior", it's only superior is you take it that you are looking for a balanced and neutral headphone without a bump or roll off anywhere. The Frequency response doesn't prove anything, if i don;t like the sound of the headphone then i don't, not matter how much you say to me "BUT THEY'RE SCIENTIFICALLY SUPERIOR". Etymotic rate their ER42 at 92% accuracy, however i like accurate sounding earphones, i swear in life not to listen to the ER4 as it's highs are far too irritating and disgusting for my taste, with a lack of punch to the lows. That is why i prefer earphones like the Um3X.

 

[IPodPJ]

Your graphs don't show you how fast a driver is. If the K701 and HD800 look similar on paper and that's what you're going by, you have no clue how the music will be reproduced through those headphones. You really believe looking at a frequency response graph will tell you all there is to know about the way a headphone reproduces sound? Things like attack, decay, transients, and PRaT can only be determined by your ears. Even the engineer that designed the magnet, the voice coil, the driver, etc. would not be able to tell you how a headphone varies from another without listening to it. The comments you are making are ludicrous. I don't even know how you feel qualified to make such assumptions based on the equipment you own.

MaoDi,
The HD800 are technically superior to the K701 and if either of you have compared the two headphones at length you would know this.

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I cannot believe that you're calling HD600, HD650, HD800, and K701 "very similar". I suppose you've never heard them in person.

I only gave you a snap shot of data. headroom does not offer you nearly enough data, but its still enough to prove many common assertions about the k701/hd650/etc.

Btw, those headphones are VERY similar to non-audiophile ears. You may believe they sound very different, but some people also believe that cables/power sources/etc. (im not talking about balanced, I mean purely just a cable) make a huge night/day difference. there are differences, but its pretty elitist to call them huge differences

the small differences in the graphs account for 90% of the traits that people associate with those headphones
1) the k701s lean bass is shown by the its poor bass response graph
2) the hd600/650's warmer sounds are shown by the bass emphasis in its frequency response graph
3) the hd800's transparency is showm by the low amplitude peaks in its sin wave response

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif Btw, those headphones are VERY similar to non-audiophile ears.

That's not the impression I got from my non-audiophile friends who auditioned them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif the small differences in the graphs account for 90% of the traits that people associate with those headphones 1) the k701s lean bass is shown by the its poor bass response graph 2) the hd600/650's warmer sounds are shown by the bass emphasis in its frequency response graph 3) the hd800's transparency is showm by the low amplitude peaks in its sin wave response

You're simply matching the impressions of people to the graphs that you're looking at. Can you tell me how something will sound like if I only give you a FR graph?

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IPodPJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your graphs don't show you how fast a driver is. If the K701 and HD800 look similar on paper and that's what you're going by, you have no clue how the music will be reproduced through those headphones. Things like attack, decay, transients, and PRaT can only be determined by your ears. Even the engineer that designed the magnet, the voice coil, the driver, etc. would not be able to tell you how a headphone varies from another without listening to it. The comments you are making are ludicrous. I don't even know how you feel qualified to make such assumptions based on the equipment you own. MaoDi, The HD800 are technically superior to the K701 and if either of you have compared the two headphones at length you would know this.

I think you guys are still misunderstanding me

I am NOT telling people to go into a store, run some tests, and buy the headphone that has the highest cumulative score

I AM saying that you should minimize subjective preferences as much as possible. Like you mentioned, there are many things that science cannot accurately measure. But there ARE certain things that can be measured. At VERY least you should make yourself aware so that you can make an EDUCATED, albeit still subjective, decision.


@Uncle Erik

I think your counterargument is the most convincing one that I've heard. I did not consider the entertainment aspect of shopping.

In this sense, it might be better to follow the cliche "ignorance is bliss" motto, in order maximize the longevity of this hobby. Obviously, if you find the "technically" superior headphone, your search will be done and theres no fun in that.

However, for an average consumer who still considers bang for buck, I still absolutely believe that subjectivity should be minimized while shopping.

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif Btw, those headphones are VERY similar to non-audiophile ears.

That's not the impression I got from my non-audiophile friends who auditioned them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif the small differences in the graphs account for 90% of the traits that people associate with those headphones 1) the k701s lean bass is shown by the its poor bass response graph 2) the hd600/650's warmer sounds are shown by the bass emphasis in its frequency response graph 3) the hd800's transparency is showm by the low amplitude peaks in its sin wave response

You're simply matching the impressions of people to the graphs that you're looking at. Can you tell me how something will sound like if I only give you a FR graph? (If yes, then how would you answer my quote below?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Moreover, looking at the FR of the K701 and A700, you would tell me that the K701 is the more "bass heavy" of the two. However, that's just not the case, the A700 would be considered a bass monster next to the K701. What does this tell you?

You still haven't replied to this.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif Btw, those headphones are VERY similar to non-audiophile ears. You may believe they sound very different, but some people also believe that cables/power sources/etc. (im not talking about balanced, I mean purely just a cable) make a huge night/day difference. there are differences, but its pretty elitist to call them huge differences

I'm now 100% sure that you've never heard the 650s alongside the 800s or the 701s. It's not elitist to make claims that are common knowledge based on experience. It is elitist, however, to make the claims that you are making, which run contrary to the experience of everyone I've ever known (audiophile and non-audiophile alike) and dismiss that knowledge as inferior to your graphs and charts.

 

[Currawong]

jawang: You can't be objective about subjectivity. The concept in itself is a contradiction of terms. I can assure you from experience which you clearly don't have that you can have a great headphone sound like crap and a far less great headphone sound fantastic with the right gear. Case in point, the Headroom graphs were made using their discontinued top-of-the-line amp. The measurements wont be the same with the headphones plugged into different amps.

 

[Cankin]

 

[AtomikPi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif Btw, those headphones are VERY similar to non-audiophile ears. You may believe they sound very different, but some people also believe that cables/power sources/etc. (im not talking about balanced, I mean purely just a cable) make a huge night/day difference. there are differences, but its pretty elitist to call them huge differences

Compared to differences in amps, dacs, etc. differences in headphones are huge. I would not want to listen to the K701 or HD650 but I love the HD800. This is based on a very small measurable difference that makes the HD650 laidback and dark and the K701 lacking in bass and a bit unnatural sounding.

Non-audiophile opinions have no place in a discussion of headphones among people who are audiophiles and the "small" differences between headphones make the difference between decent and great...

I think you're just using FR to justify impressions of phones rather than making opinions based on the FR.

Subjective opinions of headphones are reasonable estimates of performance and tend to correspond to measurable differences, but I would never pick headphones based on FR alone. There is no "best headphone" - different people prefer different sound signatures. If you want to you can get something mostly neutral (HD800) and hope you'll like that, or you can just see what's out there and maybe be surprised.

 

[Drubbing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif My point is, you ears might tell you one thing, but the next day they could tell you something different. Objective tests, on the other hand, are never wrong

O'Rly?

Take a phone, and its FR specs from the manufacturer, to 3 different labs and try and to reproduce corresponding results.

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's not the impression I got from my non-audiophile friends who auditioned them.

funny, because my nonaudiophile friends can barely tell the difference between my old akg k99s running from an ipod, and the setup I use in my signature.

check out this website. according to a sample of 10,000 people, the average person can't tell the difference between 128kb/s and 320kb/s mp3s. and you are telling me that the average person can tell between closely matched high end headphones?
Do 320kbps mp3 files really sound better? Take the test! | NoiseAddicts music and audio blog


Quote:

You're simply matching the impressions of people to the graphs that you're looking at. Can you tell me how something will sound like if I only give you a FR graph?

yes, I can tell you if it is warm/bright sounding, and I can tell you if it has relatively defined bass/mids or not. I can also tell you certain details about the sound signature, purely from headroom graphs

certain things like soundstage/etc. will depend on the build materials and the positioning of the drivers, so I can't tell you without hearing

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drubbing /img/forum/go_quote.gif O'Rly? Take a phone, and its FR specs from the manufacturer, to 3 different labs and try and to reproduce corresponding results.

you are nitpicking. take the standard deviation of error for those 3 tests, and compare it to the standard deviation of error of 3 people trying to measure the FR specs based on hearing