[IPodPJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif how would objective tests favor neutral gear? If I am bass oriented, I should use tests that focus on bass response. If I want a specific attribute (soundstage, presence, etc.) I should test that specific attribute and ensure that I get the quality I am looking for.

And just exactly how do you test for soundstage? How do you test for imaging? How do you test for these 3-dimensional qualities? These things are not objectively measured unless you have an easy in-store way to measure HRTFs. These attributes are part of human perception.

 

[sunneebear]

A common phrase on any audio forum is "I heard things I've never heard before". I think only music can give you that. Sine waves and test tones won't give you headroom and sound stage. You can't say things like "with the HD800 I noticed that the decay of the triangle is a quarter second longer than the HD600". "I can hear the first chair violinists clearly and place them at my 10 right in front of the second chairs."...
You can hear so many more things with music.

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So I suppose that you're saying if headphone A measures better than headphone B then everyone will pick headphone A because of these measurements?

no.

like I said earlier, your individual ear shape, head shape, bone density, skin type, etc. will affect sound perception.

in one way or another, you should always listen to headphones before buying (if possible). the point that I am arguing is that, for the purpose of testing, you should make an effort to be as objective as possible. subjective preferences should be minimized, because they can vary MUCH more than the high end headphones do (making your evaluation somewhat random if you choose to base a decision on subjective feelings).

again, the only reason any of this matters, is because high quality headphones are often very similar. if you want to reliably pick out the better one, you have to be serious about testing.

if you don't care about getting the best for your money, then ignore my posts

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IPodPJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif And just exactly how do you test for soundstage? How do you test for imaging? How do you test for these 3-dimensional qualities? These things are not objectively measured unless you have an easy in-store way to measure HRTFs. These attributes are part of human perception.

I would measure it by picking specific music samples that exhibit the quality I'm looking for, and then listening to that same sample over and over with the new headphone (along with an old pair that I am familiar with).

I never said that you can be 100% objective, my point is that you should minimize subjective opinions as much as POSSIBLE.

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunneebear /img/forum/go_quote.gif A common phrase on any audio forum is "I heard things I've never heard before". I think only music can give you that. Sine waves and test tones won't give you headroom and sound stage. You can't say things like "with the HD800 I noticed that the decay of the triangle is a quarter second longer than the HD600". "I can hear the first chair violinists clearly and place them at my 10 right in front of the second chairs."... You can hear so many more things with music.

listen to a song. can you transcribe the exact notes that every instrument is playing?

my roommates and I have all played instruments since before we could talk, and we all have perfect pitch or at least very good relative pitch. the FOUR of us working together cannot transcript a song perfectly after one listen. it takes us hours of repeated listening to do so. even then, we sometimes make mistakes on complex pieces

the "I heard things I havent heard before" argument is unreasonable, because you will inevitably "hear new things" even if you use 5 dollar ipod headphones (if you listen to the same song repeatedly)

 

[FYJX]

For some of us here, Science is important in our listening, but even if the headphone/earphone you are about to buy perfects out all the Science testings, if it doesn't sound right to you and you don't like it then you don't like it...doesn't matter how well they perform in science, it's how well they perform your music to your own taste.

 

[KONAKONA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott_Tarlow /img/forum/go_quote.gif because the music is why you buy the headphones....

Simply the truth.

 

[FYJX]

this forum is sort of like Ed Seedhouse trying to change everyones mine on burn-in doesn't exist and it's all your own perceptions and thoughts....

 

[Sherwood]

I'm curious as to what your personal experience with multi-thousand dollar earphones is, Jawang.

My understanding of headphones has come from thousands of hours of objective listening, and (most importantly) self-reflection regarding my preferences. I believe wholeheartedly that this is the best possible way to account for the individual factors you mention.

The tracks I use to evaluate headphones are all music, and they're all music I enjoy, because musical enjoyment is my utmost goal. They're also songs with an extremely wide range of challenges for gear.

Do you have a sample disc with some tests you prefer? Has using it led you to understand your preferences, biases, etc.? If so, excellent. If not, I'd suggest adding a few songs that move you emotionally, because it's important, and I've not heard you mention it yet.

For me, the single most important aspect of my listening is how clean and tidy my listening space is. That's hard to measure objectively.

 

[boomana]

jawang, tell us what very high-end headphones you have auditioned before. My experience has been that high-end gear is extremely revealing of the rest of the audio chain and very responsive to the different styles, types, and quality of music and recording. A sine wave wouldn't tell me crappola about attack and decay and the tone of the brush on the cymbals and the placement of the instruments to each other, etc. I would personally never trust a sine wave to tell me what I want to know about a headphone or a source or an amp, and all I want to know is how they convey music. Everything I want to know is revealed only through listening to music. That experiments you're talking about may be interesting on paper, but mean nothing at all if my headphones can't produce what I'm looking for when I put them on.

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif subjective preferences should be minimized

Why should subjective preference be minimized? After all, we're striving to satisfy our own subjective satisfaction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif high quality headphones are often very similar.

What makes you say that? Can you give me some examples?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif because they can vary MUCH more than the high end headphones do (making your evaluation somewhat random if you choose to base a decision on subjective feelings).

That's your subjective opinion, after all, were you able to back up your claim with measurement?

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaoDi /img/forum/go_quote.gif For some of us here, Science is important in our listening, but even if the headphone/earphone you are about to buy perfects out all the Science testings, if it doesn't sound right to you and you don't like it then you don't like it...doesn't matter how well they perform in science, it's how well they perform your music to your own taste.

you need to consider two things

1) is that statement really true? are you sure that science can't predict what sounds good? the hd800, hd650, k701, and every other popular headphone are all scientifically superior. this can be verified by looking at their harmonic distortion and 50/500/5000 hz frequency responses

Here is one example. People say the k701 has lean bass. this can be verified by looking at the 50hZ bass response frequency. compare the k701 to the dt770, which is supposedly a bass monster

as you can see, this hard objective data conclusively shows why the k701 has "lean" bass. bass notes simply do not sustain well on the k701

I could probably write 20 pages of frequency comparisons, but nobody is going to read all that.



2) remember that every individual person's head shape, ear shape, bone structure, etc, will affect frequency response. an online data graph might be different from your individual perception. thats why you should conduct scientific tests on your own

to repeat myself, you can never be 100% objective, but if you minimize subjective variables, you will end up with the best result in the end

 

[Xan7hos]

Probably the dumbest thing I've seen on this forum next to people selling Nike shoes

 

[Sherwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif you can never be 100% objective, but if you minimize subjective variables, you will end up with the best result in the end

Sounds rather dogmatic, Jawang. My utmost goal is not to become an accurate testing instrument.

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why should subjective preference be minimized? After all, we're striving to satisfy our own subjective satisfaction. What makes you say that? Can you give me some examples?

Here is an example of 4 high end headphones which are "very similar." obviously they each have their own "sound" but the differences are very subtle

in this second graph, the sin waves are not lined up, but you can see that each headphone has similar levels of distortion

here are two headphones which are very different, notice how the k701 has much better frequency response at 500hz, which is why it is "clearer" and more detailed than the a700

Quote:

That's your subjective opinion, after all, were you able to back up your claim with measurement?

you are striving for personal satisfaction, not subjective satisfaction. thats the difference.

if you buy a headphone because of subjective preferences that you happened to have when u walk into a store, your preferences might change over time

if you buy a headphone because of objective preferences (bass response, soundstage, detail, etc.) which you measured as objectively as possible, your satisfaction will never change because your criteria were objective